- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- Republican candidate for County Mayor John DeBerry, tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I'm joined tonight by John DeBerry.

He's the Republican candidate for County Mayor.

Thank you for being here.

- Thanks for having me.

- Absolutely.

Along with Bill Dries, reporter with The Daily Memphian.

Before we get to talking to John DeBerry here, I'll remind everyone that the county general, which is this election, and the federal and state primaries are August 6th.

Early voting actually starts July, mid-July.

We'll have Mickell Lowery, the Democratic candidate for County Mayor on the show, I believe it's on June 26th.

We had him scheduled last week.

There's little bit of a mix up.

All good.

We'll get to Mickell Lowery soon.

We also have the Democratic candidate for County Sheriff, Anthony Buckner, coming up.

I believe that's next week, June 4.

And then we're still reaching out to Brad Less, the Republican candidate.

And we'll be doing lots of coverage of the elections and dates and so on, Bill and others on The Daily Memphian team.

And I'm sure we'll be doing more here as we move towards that county general and federal and state primary.

That's also the redistricting primary.

So lots going on there.

But again, John DeBerry, thank you for being here.

- Thanks for having me.

- Absolutely.

We'll start with, in 26 years I think in the State House, as a Democrat, I wanna get to a point of talking about the things you did, your priorities when you were in the State House that time, but you're running as a Republican this time.

And I guess my first question would be over the time you were in the State House as a Democrat in your life and politics, did the party change?

Did you change?

How did you end up now as a Republican in this race?

- Well, that's a good question.

I think, I'm glad you asked because it makes me succinctly think about the answer to that as to who changed.

One of the things I do know, as a matter of fact, is I did not change from my core beliefs.

Those core beliefs were placed before the people in District 90.

When I ran in 1995, I won and was sworn in in 1995.

They knew where I stood on all of these issues.

They understood where I was on the issue of life, where I was on the issue of parents, education.

I worked with the teachers.

I think that the 26 years that I served in the Tennessee House of Representatives, I served on the education committee for many of those years.

I served as the Chair of Children and Family that rewrote many of the laws that deal with custody, that deal with child abuse, that deal with family issues.

I shepherded those, along with people like Curtis Person and others.

He and I, as a matter of fact, our legislation that we sponsored created the Department of Children Services.

So to answer your question, I think that as a Democrat, I served the people of my district.

They were pleased with my service.

They elected me 13 times.

I never lost an election as a Democrat.

And I think that somewhere along the line, the party priorities changed.

I was not given a vote in those priorities.

I was not given a vote in those changes.

It just happened one day.

I was told I was not a Democrat anymore.

But my core beliefs and principles have not changed.

- One more from you and then we'll get to Bill, and briefly and then we'll dig into the issues and so on.

But your agenda as a Republican and the way you want to distinguish yourself from the Democratic candidate, Mickell Lowery, what are those key points?

And then we'll dig into all of 'em.

- I think that basically we're talking about two gentlemen, two very fine men.

I knew Mickell's father, a fine man also.

So it's not a matter of whether or not either of us are bad people.

I think that what distinguishes me is maturity, judgment, and experience.

I served 26 years, as you said, in the Tennessee House of Representatives.

So I worked on the legislative side.

I received accolades from the DAs, from the Sheriff Departments, from the Police Departments, from various education groups, from the Junior League.

I've got all types of plaques that said that I served the people that I represented at that time.

So six years working with Governor Lee.

Governor Lee chose me to be a member of his cabinet.

I served as senior advisor, my office right down the hall from the governor.

The first African-American to ever have an office on the first floor of the Tennessee Capitol.

And so I bring experience from both sides, from the legislative side, from the executive side.

And I think that that's one of the things at this particular time in our history where Nashville and Washington has become very important and vocal and visible in Memphis and Tennessee politics.

I think I bring that to the table.

- All right, let me bring in Bill Dries.

- So on that line, as you, and I think probably all of our viewers are aware, there's a big debate about state control here, state control of the school system, the Memphis Safe Task Force presence here.

To what degree is this mayor's race a referendum on that control?

- I think that the people, the citizens of Shelby County are most certainly watching how both of us speak about this issue.

The fact is the state didn't just decide that they were going to infringe or hedge or jump into Memphis and Shelby County politics.

I think all of us, if we think clearly for just a moment, realize that we had some problems that were calling attention to the way we educated our children, the way we ran our school system and crime.

Memphis was, for a while there, called the most dangerous city in America, the murder capital of America.

We had grandmothers who couldn't go to their mailboxes without being assaulted.

We had folks being shot on Beale Street.

So the state and the national government didn't just say, "Well, let's go mess with Memphis."

Memphis is extremely important.

We are set in the middle of the country.

We're the distribution center of the nation.

We are the original big city of the South.

Memphis at one time was the cleanest city, the most beautiful city, the safest city, voted that way for many years.

Our school system, when I went to school, even in segregated schools, I would put the school that I went to against any school on the planet because it was just that good.

So at some point in time, Memphis stopped being the Memphis that was a light and an example for the rest of the country.

And certain things happened that begged and almost demanded that the state government and the federal government come in and intervene.

And I think we need to keep everything in perspective when we start talking about those issues.

- So if you're elected Shelby County Mayor and you take office on September 1st, what is your relationship like with the task force in particular?

- Well, my relationship would be we have a fine police department in the city of Memphis, in Germantown, Collierville, Arlington, all of the suburbs have fine police departments.

We have a sheriff department where Mayor Bonner has done a very good job.

I would like to see that the Shelby County Sheriff Department is the best funded, best trained force, law enforcement agency in the state.

My immediate relationship would be, let's gradually let go.

Let's make sure that our people can do the job.

Let's make sure our streets are safe because our police force, our sheriff department and our various law enforcement agencies are doing the job and let the National Guard go home.

I think they've done a good job.

Allow the feds, other federal agencies to go home, allow the State Troopers to come to a manageable group.

Governor Lee has been very good and attentive toward helping to get us to where we can feel safe in Shelby County.

If they've done their job, let's let them go and then turn the responsibility over to our local law enforcement agencies.

And that's what I will work on from day one.

- How much do you think of the fight against crime was a matter of the feds being here and was a matter of local policies on the city side without the feds?

Because crime had already dropped by 20% when the task force rolled in here.

- I think here again, perception is reality.

And when you have a city like Memphis and a county like Shelby County that has so much to offer the whole country, I think we forget sometime that the state of Tennessee has been voted over and over and over as the best managed state in the country.

And Memphis and Tennessee sits at the heart of that.

So I think that we gotta weigh it out and balance it.

I think that a certain amount of intervention was absolutely needed.

But now that that intervention has been successful, that our police director in Memphis and the sheriff in Shelby County have adjusted and added people to the force, changed the training, gone to the community to have community input, I think that we just need to let it go its course and go back to normal policing.

- Lots of different opinions about the task force, but a lot of elected officials in Memphis, of whatever party, have been supportive by and large of Tennessee Highway Patrol and a lot of the federal parts of it in terms of especially where it's focused on violent crime, drug crimes, you know, all the people with felonies out, you know, who skipped out on their warrants and so on.

Where there's been more pushback has been on ICE and immigration.

What is your take on the activities of ICE in Memphis and Shelby County and just the role of immigrants in this community?

- Oh Lord, we hear all the time the cliche that we are a nation of immigrants and we are.

But I think that there was, and it still is a lot of concern about maybe a double standard, a standard to where if an African-American man or a European-American, a white American person or someone else, if we commit a crime, there's a certain way that we are handled and a certain way that we are adjudicated into the system.

If I'm driving without my license, if I'm driving without insurance, if I am driving without a tag on my car, I'm going to be arrested and taken downtown.

And as a African-American man, I find it disconcerting if someone who has not paid taxes as long as I have, have not worked within the system, have not served, does not have fathers and cousins and others who have served this country, someone who lost their life in World War II, that if that individual who is not a citizen, and not trying to follow the law, I'm not saying go and look for people and hurt people and kick doors down.

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is let's make sure that the laws are being applied and that they are being applied with a level and clear distinction that the law is being followed as far as what a citizen deserves, what a non-citizen deserves and both of them being treated fair.

That's what I wanna see.

- But midway through show, Bill mentioned schools.

We're obviously right in the middle of just this past week as we record, I think most, if not all of the new state-appointed board that's taking over-- - All but one.

- All but one, thank you.

All but one as we record on Thursday morning has been appointed.

your former boss, the governor appointed, what?

Five or six of them.

People can go to The Daily Memphian.

It's all Shelby County folks except one Nashville person who works in education.

If you're elected county mayor, how would you want to interact with this board and even if you're not elected, what are your hopes and expectations for this board when it comes to the school system?

I know it's changed a lot over time, but it's the school system that you were a part of.

- One of the things I think that Bill knows, and we both watched as well as you, we've watched the metamorphosis in Memphis.

We've watched a lot of things that we used to have pride in that have a negative connotation.

I know it sounds cliche-ish, but everybody talks about the lost generation, but nobody wants to talk about who lost them and how they were lost.

We cannot hire enough policemen and law enforcement or officers to watch every little knucklehead who is not trained, not raised, not taught, and is not giving respect for the law, for his or her elders, for the teachers who are being abused in their own classrooms, for our school system and our law enforcement.

So what do we need to do?

We need to make sure that the Shelby County School system delivers what we send 1.5 to $1.7 billion a year to educate 110,000 children.

You do the math.

How is the issue money?

The issue is not money.

And so we need to make sure that the investment that the Tennessee taxpayers make to those 110,000, 115,000 children is a good investment, that our teachers are paid well, that they're supported, that our schools are safe places.

So I would like to see that task force do what they've been tasked to do.

They have not been sent to run the school system.

They have not been sent to oversee the teachers.

We have good principals and others to do that job.

I think that they've been sent to make sure that the board properly does what it has a charter responsibility to do: to see that the money is spent right, that it's going to pay the teachers, take care of the schools and educate the children.

If they stay within those perimeters, then it will be positive.

When they get outside of those perimeters, I think we're gonna have some problems with the issue of local control.

- All right.

Bill.

- As one who's been in the legislature and one who watched in your position as an advisor to the governor, what do you think of the concept of a state law that applies only to Memphis, especially?

- I'm sorry.

- Yeah, especially when you have other school systems that would meet the standards set for a takeover.

- You know, sometimes I miss the legislature, Bill and sometimes I don't.

There are times when I think that things that you and I would say from our perspective from being here and knowing who Memphis is, what Memphis is, regardless of the perception that folks have, if you go east, we know who Memphis is.

I believe that there are good folks in Memphis, smart people in Memphis, who can handle any problem we have.

I believe every problem we've got in Memphis and Shelby County has a limited lifespan.

So when we single out Memphis as though it's some type of microcosm, as though it is some type of something that exists separate and apart from the rest of the nation, I think that we're overlooking those individuals who have the ability, the skill, aptitude and fitness to fix the problem.

I think that we need to sit down at the table, we need to determine what the problems are, determine how to solve them, determine who's going to solve them, and not treat Memphis as though it's not a part of Tennessee.

I have never liked that attitude.

I don't think that that was the governor's intent.

I don't think that that was many of my former colleagues' intent.

But here again, somebody's got to stand up and say it and say it in such a way that they can build a consensus so the people can see who Memphis really is, what Shelby County really is, and build the type of goodwill that we're going to have to have going to the future.

- So as county mayor, your role is limited.

There is an elected school board, now there's this body.

If there are differences, do you wade in as county mayor and try to set things right between the group that's just been appointed and the school board and do you have the authority to do that?

- I think a lot of us forget that there have only been what?

Seven or eight county mayors.

It's a relatively new position and it was created for just what you're saying.

It was created to build a bridge between other independent agencies, like the Sheriff Department, the school, the assessor, the trustee, all of them are independent agencies.

But the county mayor has a tremendous amount of influence that I do not believe has been properly used in order to bring us together as a county and as a people.

We're too divided, black and white, Republican, Democrat, urban, suburban, city.

That's too much division.

And the county mayor has the authority and the power and the influence to bring people together so that our problems stay in Memphis and Shelby County and not land on the governor's desk or the president's desk.

And that's something that I absolutely will do.

I love Memphis, I love Shelby County, and I don't want to see us embarrassed any longer.

- Okay, let's talk about the election, the drive to election day.

The last two editions of this election cycle, the Democrats swept every countywide office and the two cycles before that, the Republicans swept those elections.

What's gonna happen this time around?

Is one party gonna sweep it?

- Well, I think that it's competitive and that's the way it should be.

It shouldn't be, well, this is a red county or a blue county or a red state.

I think when we lose that competitiveness to where folks are listening to concepts and ideas where, as Dr.

King said in 1963, where we are judged by the color of our skin and not the content of our character, or we're judged by an R or a D and not the content of our character, I think we lose something as Americans.

I think that what we've got to do is keep it competitive.

Listen to the person, listen to the ideas, and make a decision based upon whether or not you actually believe that that person is going to keep their word, that they're going to solve the problem.

Not, "Well, I'm just gonna push the D or I'm going to push the R."

And I think that's one of the reasons why we're in the mess we're in right now because of doing that.

- Is some of the reaction to the Republican column and the democratic column, is some of that reaction a reaction to President Trump?

- Oh, of course it is.

Of course it is.

President Trump is his own man.

He is an individual, he is unique.

We can argue that whether or not he's good for the world stage or the national stage.

I'm not into all of that.

When I had an opportunity during his first term with Betsy DeVos being the Secretary of Education, because I was so well known already as a Democrat in the issue of education, I was invited to be part of a roundtable discussion with other Democrats from around the country to talk about education.

Past that, I don't have any communications with the president of the United States, and he doesn't have any with me.

He's not running for county mayor, he's not running for governor.

He's running the country and folks can judge him on how well he's running the country.

What I want folks to do is concentrate on John DeBerry and concentrate on what I've done for the last 30 years, The way I've carried myself.

I've kept my word, I've fought, I've brought nothing but integrity and goodwill back home from my service.

And I just want people to look at me for me.

- With just a couple minutes left, you talked about singling Memphis out and you talked about, you know, voting for the person, you know, based on what they stand for.

You're not involved with this, but you've been in politics in Memphis and Tennessee for a long time.

Your take on redistricting is, you know, this changes a lot in terms of the way Memphis, Shelby County is represented at the federal level.

There's a very good chance that none of the representatives of the three districts that now subdivide Memphis and Shelby County will live in Memphis, let alone even in Shelby County.

Your take.

- You know, my understanding is about 16 to 17% voted in the primary.

Okay, that's dismal.

That is dismal because the vote determines who has the majority.

Whoever has the majority determines redistricting and all of those issues.

District 90 was created in 1994, I believe it was, by a democratic-led House of Representatives.

Karen Williams had served District 90, for, I think, almost 20 years.

It was redistricted from a Republican district to a Democratic district.

And it opened up, and that's why I ran in 1994.

Judge Williams, as she is now, came to me and others and said, "You can win their vote, but you gotta ask 'em for it."

And I got good counsel from her to be the type of person that bring people together.

I won that election.

The relevance of it is when you don't vote, you are handing the other party the majority.

The majority therefore can redistrict, can do what they want to do because they have the majority.

The Democrats have done it, the Republicans have done it.

Whether or not you or I agree with it, that's the system.

This is why people need to vote.

And if you have the majority in Nashville or in Memphis, then you make the decision on those issues.

- All right, we're just about out of time.

We appreciate this time.

Well, in the podcast version of the show, we'll probably try to dig into some quick issues around the jail, around some funding issues and so on.

And we'll do that with John DeBerry, again, the Republican candidate for mayor.

We appreciate you being here.

You can get the podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

And then also, as I said at the top of the show, we've got Mickell Lowery, the Democratic candidate.

He's coming up June 26th, so I'll have him on then.

Thanks very much and we'll see you next week.

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