>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

A MAJOR DEPARTURE AT THE PENTAGON.

ARMY SECRETARY GENERAL DAN DRISCOLL RESIGNS AFTER MONTHS OF CLASHES WITH PETE HEGSETH.

WE'LL HAVE THE DETAILS.

> >> THEN -- >> WHAT IS THE CURE FOR MEASLES?

YOUR MEASLES IS CHICKEN SOUP AND VITAMIN A.

>> A DISEASE AMERICA ONCE DECLARED ELIMINATED IS BACK AS CASES SURGE AND VACCINATION RATES FALL, I SPEAK TO CDC'S FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER ABOUT A PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM IN CRISIS.

> >> PLUS, THE U. S. GOVERNMENT PROMISES SUPPORT, BUT WHAT DOES IT COST TO GET IT?

JOURNALIST ANNIE LOWRIE DISCUSSES HER NEW BOOK, "THE TIME TAX," WHICH ADDRESSES THE BUREAUCRATIC BARRIERS FACING THOSE WHO NEED IT MOST.

> >> IT'S HARD FOR ME TO IMAGINE HOW WE GET BACK TO NORMAL IN THE SENSE OF NOT SOME RADICAL TRANSFORMATION OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> A CAUTIONARY TALE OF A DIVIDED NATION.

IN HIS NEW NOVEL "THE BREAKUP," AUTHOR KIRK ANDERSON IMAGINES A FUTURE AMERICA THAT DESCENDS INTO CIVIL WAR.

HE TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT BLURRING THE LINE BETWEEN FICTION AND REALITY.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE VACUUM OF LEADERSHIP AT THE TOP OF THE U. S. MILITARY IS GROWING A LITTLE WIDER.

U. S. ARMY SECRETARY DAN DRISCOLL HAS HANDED HIS RESIGNATION TO PRESIDENT TRUMP FOLLOWING MONTHS OF CLASHES WITH DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH.

MUCH OF THAT FRICTION IS UNDERSTOOD TO HAVE STEMMED FROM HEGSETH'S SLASHING OF THE ARMY'S MOST SENIOR LEADERS, INCLUDING CHIEF OF STAFF GENERAL RANDY GEORGE, WHO HEGSETH FIRED IN APRIL WITHOUT EXPLANATION.

FOR MANY, DRISCOLL'S LOOMING DEPARTURE IS NO SURPRISE, BUT IT LEAVES THE U. S. MILITARY WITHOUT YET ANOTHER COMBAT- TESTED LEADER AT WHAT SOME SEE AS A TIME OF MAXIMUM PERIL.

LOCKED IN A WAR WITH IRAN THAT HAS NO END IN SIGHT, AND ADAPTING TO THE THREAT THAT CHEAP DRONE TECHNOLOGY NOW POSES TO U. S. BASES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

ELENA IS FOLLOWING DEVELOPMENTS FOR US FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND ELENA, IN TERMS OF THE U. S. BEING ENGAGED IN WARFARE, HERE WE HAVE REPORTS OF ANOTHER KINETIC STRIKE.

THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ JUST MOMENTS AGO BY THE UNITED STATES.

ALL OF THIS FACTORING INTO INCREASED CONCERN ABOUT THE LACK OF LEADERSHIP AT THE PENTAGON RIGHT NOW.

WHAT MORE ARE WE LEARNING ABOUT THE STRIKE AND THE FIRING, OR THE RESIGNATION, THAT IS, OF DAN DRISCOLL?

>> YEAH, I'LL START WITH THE STRIKE, BIANNA, BECAUSE WE JUST HEARD CENTCOM ANNOUNCE THIS TODAY, TUESDAY AT NOON, THE U. S. CARRIED OUT ADDITIONAL STRIKES ON REST LOSINGARY GUARD CORPS TARGETS IN PART IN RESPONSE TO ATTACKING COMMERCIAL HIPPING IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, BUT ALSO IN RETALIATION TO IRANIAN STRIKES ON U. S. MILITARY STRIKES IN JORDAN AND THE UAE.

REMIND YOU, THOSE STRIKES FROM IRAN IN JORDAN AND UAE, ALL OF WHICH I NOTE WERE INTERCEPTED OR ALLOWED TO PASS BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT GOING TO BE HITTING THEIR TARGETS, CAME IN RETALIATION TO U. S. STRIKES ON A DIFFERENT LAUNCHER.

WE KNOW OVER SUNDAY NIGHT INTO MONDAY, THE U. S. MILITARY HAD LAUNCHED STRIKES ON DIFFERENT LAUNCHERS THAT THE RGC HAD THAT THEY SAID WERE ESSENTIALLY LOADING SEA MINES ON TO THOSE LAUNCHERS TO PUT INTO THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

SO A LITTLE BIT OF A BACK AND FORTH THERE.

NOW THE QUESTION, OF COURSE, IS THIS ESCALATION, IS THIS GOING TO BE A RETURN TO A LOT OF STRIKES EXCHANGED BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES.

AT LEAST FROM THE U. S. SIDE.

AND WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, BIANNA, HE SAID YESTERDAY HE BELIEVES ANY SORT OF A MILITARY ACTION, PARTICULARLY AROUND WHAT WE SAW SUNDAY INTO MONDAY WOULD BE LIMITED IN SCOPE.

I KNOW FROM MY CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THEY AREN'T EXPECTING THIS MAJOR MILITARY ESCALATION.

THEY DO WANT THIS WAR TO SHIFT FROM A MORE FOCUSED MILITARY ONE TO ONE NOW MORE FOCUSED ON TRYING TO ISOLATE IRAN BY HURTING THEM AS FINANCIALLY POSSIBLE AS THEY CAN.

AND SO I WOULD ARGUE THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE NOW.

NO WORD YET IF OF COURSE THERE ARE MORE, IF WE SHOULD BE ANTICIPATING ANY SORT OF RETALIATION FROM IRAN.

WE HAVEN'T HEARD THAT YET.

AS FOR DRISCOLL, THE ARMY SECRETARY, WHO ANNOUNCED HIS RESIGNATION AND SUBMITTED THAT TO THE PRESIDENT YESTERDAY, THIS IS SOMETHING WE'VE BEEN REPORTING ON FOR A LONG TIME.

HE HAS CLASHED VERY HEAVILY WITH DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH.

I SHOULD NOTE WE'VE BEEN COVERING THIS ALMOST A YEAR NOW.

AT THE BEGINNING, IT ALMOST WAS A ONE-SIDED CLASH WHERE HEGSETH WAS THE ONE WHO HAD DEEP DISTRUST OF DRISCOLL.

THAT'S IN PART BECAUSE OF HIS TIES TO THE MOST SENIOR MEMBERS WHO WORK IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THAT INCLUDES THE VICE PRESIDENT, J. D. VANCE.

DRISCOLL AND VANCE WERE CLASSMATES AT YALE.

THEY HAVE A CLOSE FRIENDSHIP AND DRISCOLL WOULD GO TO HIM PERSONALLY TO TELL HIM THINGS.

HE ALSO HAD A DIRECT LINE TO DONALD TRUMP, WOULD GO TO HIM AS WELL.

THEY DEVELOPED A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP DURING THE PRESIDENT'S SECOND TERM.

THIS IS SOMETHING OUR SOURCES HAVE TOLD US REALLY FRUSTRATED HEGSETH.

HE FELT THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO GO AROUND HIM AND ALMOST AT TIMES UNDERMINE HIM.

THIS HAS BEEN A SOURCE OF TENSION FOR A LONG TIME.

WELL ALSO KNOW THAT DRISCOLL, ACCORDING TO ONE OF OUR SOURCE, HAD BROUGHT UP CONCERNS WITH THE ADMINISTRATION CONCERNING ADMINISTRATION READINESS AND HOW HEGSETH AT TIMES IN DRISCOLL'S VIEW WAS UNDERMINING READINESS BY GETTING RID OF PEOPLE THAT HE DID NOT BELIEVE WERE AS LOYAL TO HIM AS PERHAPS THEY SHOULD BE.

I WOULD REMIND YOU EARLIER IN THE YEAR WE SAW JOHN FEELAND, THE SECRETARY OF THE NAVY BE KIND OF OUSTED BECAUSE OF THOSE SIMILAR TENSIONS.

I THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THERE.

IT IS DEFINITELY CONCERN THAT THIS LEAVES THE U. S. MILITARY IN A SEEMING DISADVANTAGE WHEN THEY'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ONGOING WAR WITH IRAN THAT DOES NOT SEEM TO HAVE ANY SORT OF NEAR END HERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT READINESS, THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A VACUUM THAT IS NOW GOING TO EXIST IN LEADERSHIP DURING THE MIDDLE OF THIS WAR WITH THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE THE POSITIONS OF ARMY SECRETARY AND ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF ARE BOTH NOW EMPTY AND BOTH REQUIRE SENATE CONFIRMATION.

ALAYNA TREENE AT THE WHITE HOUSE, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> WE TURN TO CONTROVERSY ONCE AGAIN ENGULFING THE CDC AS AMERICA FACES ITS WORST MEASLES OUTBREAK IN MORE THAN TWO DECADES.

TWO PEOPLE IN PENNSYLVANIA HAVE DIED AFTER CONTRACTING THE DISEASE, BUT THE DISEASE HAS CHOSEN NOT TO INCLUDE THESE DEATHS IN THE NATIONAL COUNT CHALLENGING STATE DEPARTMENT'S CONCLUSIONS.

IT'S AN UNUSUAL DECISION FROM THE AGENCY'S NEW IRECTOR ERICA SCHWARTZ.

JUST WEEKS AGO PRESIDENT TRUMP SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER CALLING FOR FEWER CHILDHOOD VACCINES, WHILE HEALTH SECRETARY ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

HAS OVERSEEN DEEP CUTS TO PUBLIC HEALTH FUNDING AND STAFFING AT THE CDC AND FDA.

FEW UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES BETTER THAN OUR NEXT GUEST.

DR.

DEBORAH HOURY WAS THE CDC'S CHIEF MEDICAL DIRECTOR, BUT AFTER THE AGENCY'S DIRECTOR WAS FIRED, SHE RESIGNED WITH A WARNING.

WE DON'T HAVE LEADERSHIP OR SCIENTIFIC LEADERSHIP ANYMORE.

DR.

HOURY JOINS ME NOW FROM ATLANTA.

DR.

HOURY, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

SO LET'S JUST PICK UP FROM WHAT WE HEARD AT THE SENATE CONFIRMATION HEARING OF ERICA SCHWARTZ.

THAT IS THE NEW CDC DIRECTOR.

AND WE SHOULD REMIND OUR VIEWERS WHAT SHE SAID AT THIS CONFIRMATION HEARING.

AND SHE PROMISED TO ALWAYS PROVIDE CLEAR EVIDENCE- BASED HEALTH GUIDANCE, AND NOW SHE HAS ORDERED AGENCY OFFICIALS TO EXCLUDE THESE TWO MEASLES DEATHS REPORTED BY PENNSYLVANIA FROM ITS NATIONAL TALLY.

HAS SHE FULFILLED HER PROMISE TO FOLLOW THE SCIENCE, OR WAS SHE RIGHT TO BE A BIT MORE CONSERVATIVE HERE GIVEN THAT SOME OF THE DETAILS WERE NOT FULLY PROVIDED BY THE STATE?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED THAT WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN OUTBREAK, THEY'RE LOOKING AT DATA NUANCES AND BICKERING OVER POLITICS VERSUS FOCUSING ON TWO TRAGIC DEATHS, CASES RISING IN PENNSYLVANIA.

AND I HAVEN'T HEARD FROM HER WITH BACK TO SCHOOL THAT THIS IS THE GREAT TIME TO REMIND EVERYBODY TO GET THEIR KIDS VACCINATED.

PENNSYLVANIA FOLLOWED THE USUAL PROTOCOL FOR A STATE.

THEY DO THE INVESTIGATION.

THERE ARE DEFINITIONS ON THE CDC WEBSITE FOR WHAT IS A MEASLES-ASSOCIATED CASE.

AND THEN THEY NOTIFY THE AGENCY WHO THEN COAL LLATES.

CDC DOESN'T READJUDICATE OR GO BACK IN AND LOOK AT CASES UNLESS ASKED BY A STATE BECAUSE THEY NEED ADDITIONAL EXPERTISE OR A LAB TEST.

IN THIS CASE PENNSYLVANIA HAD MADE THE DETERMINATION BASED ON LAB TESTING AND WHAT THEY KNEW ABOUT THE CASES TO REPORT THEM.

WE DIDN'T SEE THIS WITH TEXAS OR NEW MEXICO CASE LAST YEAR.

>> SHOULD WE HAVE SEEN THEM REPORTED LAST YEAR WITH THE TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO CASE, AS YOU'VE NOTED?

BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME WHO ARE VERY CRITICAL OF THE HHS SECRETARY, BUT DO SAY THAT GOVERNOR SHAPIRO PERHAPS SPOKE TOO SOON, OR MADE THIS ANNOUNCEMENT TOO SOON WITHOUT CONCLUSIVE DATA.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, WITH BOTH THE TEXAS CASES AND NEW MEXICO, THERE WAS CERTAINLY WE HEARD FROM OUTSIDE ORGANIZATIONS WHEN I WAS AT CDC QUESTIONING IF MEASLES WAS BEHIND THE CASES.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DEFINITION, IT'S A POSITIVE MEASLES TEST.

AND THAT'S WHAT MY UNDERSTANDING IS WITH THESE TWO CASES THAT THEY HAVE THAT THEY FOLLOWED THE DEFINITION.

THE GOVERNOR RELIES ON HIS STATE HEALTH OFFICER WHO RELIES ON ALL THE WONDERFUL STATE HEALTH DEPARTMENT PEOPLE TO DO THE INVESTIGATIONS TO LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO PROVIDE THAT DATA AND THAT REPORT.

AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE.

THE GOVERNOR CERTAINLY SPOKE PUBLICLY ABOUT THAT AND CRITICIZED THE ADMINISTRATION.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

WITH TEXAS AND NEW MEXICO, THEY BOTH PUT OUT MEDIA STATEMENTS, BUT DIDN'T PUBLICLY CRITICIZE THE ADMINISTRATION.

>> RIGHT.

AND THE REASON THAT WE'RE GIVING THIS SO MUCH URGENCY, ASIDE FROM THE TRAGIC LOSS OF LIFE, IS THAT THIS HAS GONE BEYOND A ONE-OFF CASE OR TWO AS WE NOW SPEAK.

WE'VE SEEN A HUGE SPIKE IN MEASLES CASES IN THIS COUNTRY, AND DEBATES ONCE AGAIN OVER VACCINE AND POLITICS AT PLAY.

HERE'S HOW GOVERNOR JOSH SHAPIRO DESCRIBED A CONVERSATION THAT HE HAD WITH HHS SECRETARY ROBERT KENNEDY JR.

>> I WAS VERY, VERY BLUNT WITH HIM, AND I MADE VERY CLEAR THAT HIS ACTIONS AND THE RHETORIC THAT'S COMING FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION ARE HAVING A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON COMMUNITIES ACROSS AMERICA, PARTICULARLY RIGHT HERE IN PENNSYLVANIA.

THERE'S REAL-LIFE CONSEQUENCES TO SPREADING MISINFORMATION.

>> KENNEDY THEN RESPONDED IN A SOCIAL MEDIA POST SAYING THE ANNOUNCEMENT APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN PREMATURE.

THE DEATHS MAY HAVE BEEN ALL TOGETHER FABRICATED BY ONE OF THE GOVERNOR'S HOPEFUL STAFFERS.

I'VE ALREADY ASKED YOU YOUR VIEWS ON WHETHER YOU THOUGHT THE GOVERNOR WAS PREMATURE IN THAT ANNOUNCEMENT, BUT HOW DOES THIS POLITICAL TIT FOR TAT, WHICH YOU JUST SAID WAS NOT THE CASE IN TEXAS OR NEW MEXICO LAST YEAR, HOW IS THIS COMPLICATING THE PUBLIC HEALTH RESPONSE TO THIS GROWING CRISIS AND TRUST IN PUBLIC HEALTH HERE IN THE U. S. NOW?

>> YEAH, AND I FIND IT VERY DISTURBING THAT THE SECRETARY SAID THAT THE DEATHS COULD BE FABRICATED.

THERE WAS A REPORT YESTERDAY FROM THE PARENTS THAT LOST A CHILD AND ARE OFFERING AND GRIEVING THEIR CHILD.

AND TO TALK ABOUT A DEATH BEING FABRICATED, AS A MOM MYSELF, I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE THAT THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GOING IN THIS DAY AND AGE.

THE FOCUS SHOULD REALLY BE ON WHAT WE CAN DO TO PROTECT PEOPLE AND TO NOT CALL MEASLES A HARMLESS CHILDHOOD DISEASE, AS HE HAS, TALKING ABOUT CHICKEN NOODLE SOUP BEING HELPFUL.

WE KNOW THAT ONE IN 20 CASES WILL HAVE PNEUMONIA.

ONE IN TEN CAN BE HOSPITALIZED.

AND ONE TO THREE OUT OF A THOUSAND CAN DIE THAT IS NOT A HARMLESS CHILDHOOD DISEASE.

WE NEED THE STATES TO BE ABLE TO REPORT TO CDC AND CDC TO WORK COLLABORATIVELY.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS NOW GOING TO MAKE STATES NOT WANT TO WORK CLOSELY WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IF THIS IS THE BACKLASH AND THE TREATMENT THAT THEY GET.

>> MEASLES WAS ESSENTIALLY ERADICATED IN THE UNITED STATES IN THE 1990s.

NOW WE ARE DEALING WITH MORE AND MORE CASES ANNOUNCED, A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS AS OF LAST MONTH.

NEARLY 3,000 CONFIRMED MEASLES CASES WERE REPORTED IN THE U. S. THAT'S NOT COUNTING THESE TWO PENNSYLVANIA CASES.

IT'S THE WORST MEASLES OUTBREAK SINCE 1991.

TALK ABOUT YOUR CONCERNS ON THAT LEVEL, AND IS THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM EQUIPPED TO DEAL WITH THIS NOW?

>> I WOULD SAY THE STATE AND LOCAL HEALTH DEPARTMENTS KNOW THEIR COMMUNITIES.

THEY'VE GOT BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

WHAT THEY NEED IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO SUPPORT THEM AND NOT CONTRADICT THEM.

THAT WILL HELP.

OTHERWISE, PEOPLE BEGIN TO THINK THAT MEASLES ISN'T AN ISSUE.

WHEN THE SECRETARY, YOU KNOW, WAS DEALING WITH A TEXAS MEASLES OUTBREAK AND I WAS AT CDC, WE HEARD ABOUT THE HEALERS THAT WERE TALKING ABOUT STEROIDS AND ANTIBIOTICS THAT WEREN'T INDICATED FOR MEASLES.

THOSE AREN'T FDA TREATMENTS.

THEY AREN'T EVIDENCE-BASED.

THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION DOESN'T HELP PEOPLE GET BETTER AND PROMOTES MISINFORMATION.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM CAN DO ITS JOB.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH POLITICS, IT'S KEEPING PEOPLE FROM DOING THEIR JOB, EVEN WITHIN THE CDC WHEN YOU SAW THE METHODS THAT CAME OUT ON FRIDAY FROM THE OFFICIAL CDC CHANNEL, IT WAS POLITICAL.

IT WASN'T ABOUT WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO PROTECT COMMUNITIES AND LIVES.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO ACCOUNTABILITY, I'D LIKE TO PLAY THIS EXCHANGE THAT GOT A LOT OF PICKUP BETWEEN MY COLLEAGUE DANA BASH AND HHS SECRETARY ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO.

>> DO YOU ACCEPT SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS MEASLES OUTBREAK?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

FIRST OF ALL, THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL OUTBREAK.

AND WE'RE DOING BETTER AT HANDLING IT THAN ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

MEXICO HAS 15 TIMES THE AMOUNT OF MEASLES PER CAPITA THAT WE HAVE.

CANADA HAS FOUR TIMES THE AMOUNT OF MEASLES.

ENGLAND HAS TWO TIMES THE AMOUNT OF MEASLES.

DO I CALL THOSE MEASLES OUTBREAK.

>> I MEAN, I'M ALREADY HAVING FLASHBACKS TO THE EARLY DAYS OF COVID AND COMPARING THE U. S. RESPONSE VERSUS GLOBAL RESPONSE.

SO I'D LIKE YOU TO REACT TO TWO POINTS.

ONE, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF HIS ARGUMENT?

AND ARE WE DOING BETTER AT HANDLING THIS THAN ANY OF THE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HE'S MENTIONED?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK FOR ME, I LOOK AT JUST HISTORICAL DATA AND WHERE WE WERE A YEAR AGO, TWO YEARS AGO, THREE YEARS AGO, AND THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD BE COMPARING IS THE U. S. TO THE U. S. VERY THE U. S. TO OTHER COUNTRIES.

OFTENTIMES WHEN HE'S POINTING TO SOME OF THE OUTBREAKS LIKE IN EASTERN EUROPE, THEY HAVE MUCH LOWER VACCINATION RATES.

THEY ALSO WHEN WE LOOK AT THE U. S. , WE'RE SEEING CLUSTERS, BUT CONTINUED CLUSTERS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES WITH CONTINUED TRANSMISSION.

WE'RE AT HIGH RISK FOR LOSING MEASLES ELIMINATION STATUS, WHICH WE'VE HAD FOR DECADES.

THAT MEANS THAT WE NOW HAVE IT ENDEMIC, OR REGULARLY IN THE UNITED STATES.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT WE WANT.

I'M THINKING HE NEEDS TO LOOK AT THOSE FAMILIES WHO HAVE HAD CHILDREN WHO DIED.

WE NEED TO BE PREVENTING THINGS LIKE THAT AND TALKING ABOUT HOW IT'S UNDER CONTROL, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE SECRETARY TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF VACCINATION.

HE DID IN THAT INTERVIEW, BUT ONLY WHEN PUSHED, ON A REGULAR BASIS.

AND WITH KIDS GOING BACK TO SCHOOL, THIS IS THE TIME TO DO IT.

AND I HAVEN'T SEEN THE CDC TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF FLU OR COVID VACCINES DURING THIS FALL SEASON.

THE CDC DIRECTOR NEEDS TO BE OUT THERE PUBLICLY SPEAKING.

SHE SAID SHE BELIEVES IN VACCINES.

NOW IS THE TIME FOR HER TO USE HER VOICE.

>> YOU MENTIONED COMPARING TO WHERE THINGS WERE LAST YEAR.

SO LET'S GO BACK A YEAR AGO.

SCHWARTZ'S PREDECESSOR AT THE TIME THERE, CDC DIRECTOR SUSAN MENARDS WAS FIRED AFTER SHE REFUSED TO RUBBER STAMP VACCINE RECOMMENDATIONS MADE BY HIS APPOINTEES.

YOU WERE THERE SHORTLY AFTER SHE WAS FIRED SPECIFICALLY OVER HOW VACCINE POLICY WAS BEING HANDLED, AND THIS IS A YEAR SINCE NOW.

LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

A SIP, THE ADVISORY ON IMMIGRATION PRACTICES AT THE CDC HAS BEEN REPLACED BY A PANEL CHOSEN BY SECRETARY KENNEDY.

THE MEASLES OUTBREAK CONTINUES TO SPREAD.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER CALLING FOR A REVAMP OF CHILDHOOD VACCINES.

LOOKING BACK, DO YOU FEEL AS IF RESIGNING WAS THE PROPER RECOURSE?

WAS THERE ANYTHING LOOKING BACK NOW THAT YOU THINK YOU COULD HAVE DONE TO INTERVENE MORE?

>> DURING THOSE EIGHT MONTHS, I INTERVIEWED REGULARLY.

IT WAS AFTER WE LEFT THAT WE REALLY SAW IT ESCALATE.

I DID WHAT I COULD TO PROTECT THE SCIENCE AND THE DATA AT CDC, AND THAT'S WHY I STAYED AS LONG AS I DID.

WHEN I KNEW WE NO LONGER HAD A CDC DIRECTOR THAT COULD UPHOLD INTEGRITY, I KNEW THAT MY VOICE NO LONGER COULD MATTER INSIDE, I COULD MATTER MORE OUTSIDE.

AND YOU'RE RIGHT.

AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT CAN'T BE IMPLEMENTED BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SEPARATE THE MMR WITHOUT DIFFERENT STUDIES THAT NEED TO BE DONE, YOU LOOK AT NOW HOW STATES ARE TURNING AWAY FROM THE CDC, BOTH FOR DATA, BUT ALSO DEVELOPING THEIR OWN VACCINE RECOMMENDATIONS AND TURNING TO MEDICAL ORGANIZATIONS.

THIS IS NOT WHAT WE NEED FROM OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

WE NEED IT TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT PEOPLE, SAFE FOOD AND WATER, AND CERTAINLY AROUND VACCINATIONS.

AND THIS MISINFORMATION AND MISLEADING THE PUBLIC DOESN'T HELP ANYONE.

>> WHAT DO YOU HEAR FROM YOUR FORMER COLLEAGUES AT THE CDC?

HOW ARE THEY FEELING?

ARE THEY DOING THEIR PART, AS YOU DID FOR THOSE EIGHT MONTHS PRIOR TO YOUR RESIGNATION TO KEEP THINGS FROM BEING EVEN WORSE THAN WHAT WE SEE?

>> THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY DOING THEIR BEST.

THEY'VE BEEN PROVIDING TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE BOOTS ON THE GROUND WHERE THEY CAN IN COMMUNITIES.

THEY ARE RAISING CONCERNS AROUND THINGS LIKE WITHHOLDING MEASLES DATA.

THEY SPEAK UP WHEN AND WHERE THEY CAN.

AND THEY HAD HOPE WITH THE NEW CDC DIRECTOR, DR.

SCHWARTZ COMING, AS SHE IS KNOWN TO BE A PHYSICIAN AND A SCIENTIST.

I THINK FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD THIS WEEKEND, MANY ARE DISAPPOINTED THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED AND SHE IS NOT USING HER VOICE PUBLICLY, REALLY, TO PROMOTE SCIENCE-BASED INFORMATION LIKE VACCINATIONS AND OTHER HEALTH INTERVENTIONS.

WE NEED THOSE PEOPLE TO STAY AT THE CDC BECAUSE WE NEED THAT EXPERTISE.

AND WE ALSO NEED TO BE ABLE TO RELY ON OUR STATE AND LOCAL HEALTH DEPARTMENTS.

I USED TO RECEIVE HEADS-UP PHONE CALLS ALL THE TIME FROM HEALTH DEPARTMENTS WHEN THINGS WOULD BE EMERGING.

THAT'S GOING TO STOP HAPPENING AFTER WHAT JUST HAPPENED THIS WEEK WITH HOLDING THE PENNSYLVANIA DATA.

IT'S NOT GOING TO FACILITATE GOOD COMMUNICATION BETWEEN COMMUNITIES AND CDC.

>> YOU DID WRITE AN OP-ED WHERE YOU EXPRESSED A BIT OF OPTIMISM JUST IN HOW LOCAL STATE, PRIVATE SECTOR, PUBLIC SECTOR HAS BEEN WORKING TOGETHER TO SORT OF BYPASS SOME OF THE CHALLENGES AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL HERE.

YOU'RE ALSO OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE ROLE THAT AI COULD PLAY IN ADDRESSING THESE CONCERNS.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, WE'RE JUST DAYS AWAY, OR MUCH OF THE COUNTRY HAS ALREADY STARTED SCHOOL.

A SIP PANEL HAS YET TO GIVE ITS GUIDANCE ON VACCINE RECOMMENDATIONS.

IF A PARENT ASKS YOU WHAT SHOULD THEY DO WITH THEIR CHILDREN, WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER?

>> TURN TO THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS.

THEY FOLLOW EVIDENCE- BASED GUIDANCE, AND THEY HAVE BEEN PROMOTING IT.

I KNOW MANY OF THE MEDICAL ORGANIZATIONS ARE MEETING THIS WEEK, AND RECOMMENDATIONS WILL BE COMING, AND THAT'S BECAUSE THERE IS NO CDC ASIP PANEL TO ISSUE THESE RECOMMENDATIONS.

SO MEDICAL ORGANIZATIONS ARE FILLING THE GAP.

AND THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS I TALK ABOUT GIVING HOPE IS WE ARE SEEING STATES AND REGIONAL ALLIANCES, TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES USING THIS TIME TO FILL THE GAP AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND SO IT ALLOWS FOR INNOVATION AND FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY DO WHAT'S NEEDED TO PROTECT HEALTH.

BUT WE DO NEED THAT FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THAT FLOOR TO ENSURE THAT THERE IS THAT GLUE AND CONSISTENCY.

BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THAT UNDER SECRETARY KENNEDY.

>> DR.

DEBRA HOURY, FORMER MEDICAL OFFICER AT THE CDC, THANKS FOR THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW HOURS ON HOLD, ENDLESS PAPERWORK, LONG WAITS FOR APPOINTMENTS.

FOR MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, THESE ARE EVERYDAY OBSTACLES TO ACCESSING THE THING THEY'RE ENTITLED TO WHETHER IT'S FOOD ASSISTANCE, GOVERNMENT BENEFITS OR EVEN JUST GETTING A DRIVER'S LICENSE.

OUR NEXT GUEST CALLS IT THE TIME TAX, THE HOURS IN EFFORT AND MENTAL ENERGY IT TAKES TO NAVIGATE THROUGH RED TAPE.

IT'S AN ACCEPTED REALITY HERE IN AMERICA, BUT DOES IT REALLY NEED TO BE LIKE THIS?

HER NEW NEW BOOK, "THE TIME TAX," HOW THE GOVERNMENT WASTES OUR TIME AND HOY TO FIX IT, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST ANNIE LOWRY INVESTIGATES HOW IT'S THIS WAY AND WHY IT'S OFTEN A DELIBERATE DECISION BY THOSE IN POWER.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR BOOK.

IN 2018, YOU WROTE A BOOK ABOUT GIVING PEOPLE MONEY AND MAKING THE CASE FOR UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME, JUST GIVING CASH, NO STRINGS ATTACHED HERE.

EIGHT YEARS LATER, YOU'VE WRITTEN THIS BOOK ON THE TIME TAX.

AND YOU TALK ABOUT THESE BEING TWINS, IN A SENSE.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN IN BETWEEN THIS TIME MAKING YOUR LAST BOOK OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST EIGHT YEARS TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY?

>> I DEFINITELY TIME TAXED MYSELF BY DECIDING TO WRITE A BOOK.

THAT WAS CERTAINLY ONE THING THAT HAPPENED.

BUT THIS BOOK REALLY CAME OUT OF THE REPORTING THAT I HAD DONE WITH PEOPLE ACCESSING SAFETY NET BENEFITS.

SO THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE GENERALLY VERY LOW INCOME, AND OFTEN AT RISK IN MULTIPLE WAYS, RIGHT.

THEY MIGHT HAVE A HEALTH CONDITION OR PSYCHIATRIC CONDITION.

THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE STABLE HOUSING.

THEY MIGHT NOT BE IN A SAFE AND SECURE PARTNERSHIP.

AND WE MAKE IT SO UNBELIEVABLY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO GET HELP FOR THEMSELVES AND FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

THEIR CHILDREN WHO DON'T GET TO PICK THEIR PARENTS AND DON'T, YOU KNOW, GET TO DECIDE HOW MUCH PAPERWORK THEY WOULD LIKE TO DO.

BUT THEN ONCE I SAW THAT IN THE SAFETY NET, IT WAS KIND OF THIS BADER MINEHOFF PHENOMENON, WHY DID HAVE I WAIT FOR TWO HOURS TO VOTE, WHY IS IT SO ANNOYING TO GET A PASSPORT?

WHY ARE WE DOING OUR OWN TAXES?

AND THIS ISN'T SOMETHING - -I DON'T THINK THE BURDEN IS DISTRIBUTED EQUALLY AMONG AMERICANS.

HOWEVER, I THINK THE SERVICE DELIVERY IS PRETTY BAD FOR ALL OF US.

AND THAT'S WHETHER YOU'RE TRYING TO RENOVATE YOUR HOUSE OR YOU'RE TRYING TO VOTE OR TRYING TO DEAL WITH THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, OR, WHETHER, YES, YOU NEED ASSISTANCE.

>> SO SOME OF THIS CAN BE VIEWED AS A MAJOR INCONVENIENCE, JUST RED TAPE, BUREAUCRACY AS WE KNOW IT, NEVER GOING TO GET THOSE THREE HOURS BACK.

BUT YOU ALSO MAKE THE POINT THAT'S EVEN MORE SIGNIFICANT, AND THAT IS SOME LIVES ARE REALLY AT STAKE HERE AS WELL.

AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE MEDICAID WORK REQUIREMENT THAT'S NOW ROLLING OUT UNDER THE ONE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL ACT IN THAT THIS IMPACTS SOME 25 MILLION AMERICANS, WE SHOULD NOTE ABOUT A TENTH OF THE COUNTRY.

AND YOU SAID IT IS GOING TO KILL PEOPLE.

THAT'S A PRETTY BOLD STATEMENT TO MAKE.

WALK US THROUGH HOW EXACTLY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO NOTABLY, MEDICAID IS NOT LIKE CASH WELFARE OR S. N. A. P. BENEFITS OR DISABILITY PAYMENTS, RIGHT.

IT'S NOT CASH.

YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT EXCEPT FOR ACCESS HEALTH INSURANCE.

SO THE NOTION THAT THERE WOULD BE A DISINCENTIVE TO WORK ONCE YOU WERE ON MEDICAID IS SILLY, RIGHT.

IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE YOUR DECISION MAKING OR YOUR CAPACITY TO WORK.

SO UNLIKE WITH THOSE OTHER PROGRAMS.

AND SO THE WORK REQUIREMENT IS NOT JUST A WORK REQUIREMENT, IT IS A WORK REPORTING REQUIREMENT.

YOU WILL HAVE TO NOT ONLY DO COMMUNITY SERVICE, WORK, OR BE IN EDUCATION FOR AT LEAST 80 HOURS A MONTH, YOU HAVE TO PROVE IT TO THE GOVERNMENT MONTHLY, OFTEN ON A VERY, VERY RICKETY SYSTEM.

AND THIS IS GOING TO APPLY TO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WITH THE CAPACITY, THEY MIGHT HAVE A COMPUTER AT HOME.

THEY MIGHT HAVE A NICE SMARTPHONE.

BUT IT'S ALSO GO TO APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE HOMELESS, TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE MAJOR HEALTH CONDITIONS BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T PROVEN THEM TO THE GOVERNMENT TO GET A DISABILITY EXCEPTION.

IT'S GOING TO APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO SIMPLY --WHO DON'T REALIZE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO COMPLY WITH THIS AND ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO, AND THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE THEIR HEALTH CARE, AND THEY MIGHT FIND OUT WHEN THEY ARE IN THE E. R. OR THEY HAVE A SYMPTOM THEY'RE TRYING TO GET CHECKED OUT AND THEY REALIZE THEY CAN'T.

IT'S NOT ME, IT IS PHYSICIANS WHO HAVE SAID THAT THE DECLINE IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE COVERED WILL LEAD TO A MEASURABLE NUMBER OF DEATHS.

AND IT'S REALLY UNFAIR, BECAUSE WHY ARE WE PREDICATING OUR SAFETY NET PROGRAMS ON YOUR CAPACITY 20 DO PAPERWORK.

THAT'S NOT ONE OF THE RULES THERE.

IF WE WANT TO HAVE AN INCOME BARRIER, FINE, OR AN INCOME STANDARD, FINE OR A WORK REQUIREMENT, FINE.

BUT YOUR ABILITY TO DO PAPERWORK SHOULDN'T MATTER.

>> AND GIVEN THE THOUSANDS OF WORDS, HUNDREDS OF PAGES, THE FACT THAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD BE PRONE TO MAKE AN ERROR OR TWO WHEN THEY'RE FILLING OUT THIS PAPERWORK, YOU TALK ABOUT PEOPLE WHOSE LIVES ARE SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACTED BECAUSE OF ONE ERROR YEARS AGO.

TELL US ABOUT MARCELA.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO MARCELA IS A MOM IN SALT LAKE CITY.

SHE IS A MANICURIST.

SHE DOESN'T MAKE A TON OF MONEY, AND SHE TAKES CARE OF THREE KIDS.

HER OLDEST KID JUST JOINED THE ARMY, SO HE IS OUT OF THE HOUSE.

BUT SHE HAS TWO SMALLER CHILDREN AT HOME.

AND YEARS AGO SHE HAD SCREWED SOMETHING UP ON HER TAXES IN THE WAY A LOT OF US DO.

IN FACT, IN THE WAY I HAVE.

I HAVE ACTUALLY HAD THIS PROBLEM BEFORE WHERE THE PLACE THAT SHE WAS EMPLOYED, THE SALON, THEY KIND OF MESSED UP IN REPORTING HER INCOME.

AND SO IT ENDED UP CHANGING WHICH BENEFITS SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS.

AND SHE CLAIMS THAT THIS WAS THE SALON'S FAULT, NOT HERS, AND THAT SHE ACTUALLY HAD THE RIGHT TO ACCESS THOSE BENEFIT PROGRAMS, BUT SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY FOR A LAWYER, AND SHE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO ARGUE WITH THE STATE.

AND SO EVER SINCE THEN, SHE HAS BEEN KIND OF CATEGORIZED AS A FRAUD RISK.

AND INSTEAD OF APPLYING FOR S. N. A. P. BENEFITS OR FOOD STAMPS OR MEDICAID WHICH COVERS HER AND HER CHILDREN, EVERY SIX MONTHS TO ONE YEAR, WHICH IS THE STANDARD, THEYS FOR HER TO REAPPLY EVERY MONTH OR TWO.

AND SHE HAS BEEN KICKED OFF AND READMITTED TO A GOVERNMENT PROGRAM 120 TIMES.

IT'S MISERY.

AND THIS IS A MOM WITH A FULL- TIME JOB.

SHE DOESN'T HAVE A TIME TO DO THIS, BUT SHE DOESN'T HAVE A CHOICE BECAUSE HOW ELSE IS SHE GOING TO GET HEALTH CARE FOR HER AND HER KIDS.

>> AND NOT JUST A FULL-TIME JOB, SHE IS REALLY TRYING TO BUILD HER OWN BUSINESS.

SHE HAS IDEAS.

SHE'D LIKE TO GET MORE EDUCATION.

AND ALL OF THIS IS INHIBITING HER FROM DOING THIS BECAUSE INSTEAD SHE IS SPENDING MORE TIME ON TRYING TO RECTIFY A SMALLER ROAR FROM NINE YEARS AGO.

SHE ALSO, AS YOU POINT OUT, DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A COMPUTER.

MAYBE JUST BOUGHT HER FIRST ONE.

WAS WORKING OFF OF HER PHONE.

HAD TO FAX INFORMATION IN.

EXTREMELY ARCHAIC AND UNNECESSARY.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE YOU GIVE IS JUST THE LEVEL OF HUMILIATION THAT SOME OF THESE RECIPIENTS HAVE TO GO THROUGH AND APPLICANTS AS WELL.

YOU TALK ABOUT MICHIGAN'S OLD BENEFITS APPLICATION WHICH RANSOM 18,000 WORDS AND A THOUSAND QUESTIONS.

SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS WERE QUITE INTRUSIVE, ESPECIALLY AS IT RELATES TO THEIR CHILDREN, WHERE THEY WERE CONCEIVED, WHAT DATE THEY WERE CONCEIVED, WHY, ANNIE?

>> THE TECHNICAL REASON IS THAT IT HAS TO DO WITH CASES WHERE THE STATE WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT THE NONCUSTODIAL PARENT TO ENSURE THAT THEY'RE PAYING CHILD SUPPORT, WHICH THEY WOULD THEN GARNISH TO HELP PAY FOR THE BENEFITS THAT THE MOM AND THE KIDS --EREOTYPICALLY THE MOM AND THE KIDS MIGHT RECEIVE.

THAT IS TYPICALLY HOW WE HAVE THESE KINDS OF QUESTIONS.

HOWEVER, EVERYBODY, EVERYBODY IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN, UNTIL THEY CHANGED THE FORM, WAS HANDED A FORM WITH THAT QUESTION IN IT, HAD TO LOOK THROUGH IT.

HAD TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY MIGHT HAVE TO ANSWER IT, EVEN DECIDE WHETHER THEY NEEDED TO ANSWER IT OR NOT.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY HUMILIATING.

THE NOTION THAT YOU WOULD GIVE A 44-PAGE, 18,000 WORD FORM WITH MORE THAN A THOUSAND QUESTIONS, INCLUDING THAT QUESTION ON IT TO EVERYBODY IN THE STATE?

IT WAS VERY, VERY HUMILIATING.

AND I THINK THIS IS THE MESSAGE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS SENDING TO PEOPLE IS THAT IT'S SHAMEFUL TO BE POOR.

THAT YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.

IT'S NOT A NEUTRAL THING.

WE HAVE THIS ASSISTANCE, AND WE WOULD LIKE YOU TO HAVE IT, ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE KIDS.

IT'S THAT YOU BETTER BE LIKE A LAWYER AND BETTER BE READY TO ANSWER ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS.

AND I REALLY THINK IT'S INAPPROPRIATE.

AND THERE IS LOTS OF EXAMPLES OF THINGS LIKE THIS.

I NOTE THAT IT'S VERY DIFFERENT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE EMIGRATING TO THIS COUNTRY, PEOPLE WHO ARE LOW INCOME THAN NATIVE- BORN, HIGH-INCOME FOLKS.

IF YOU'RE TRYING TO GET, FOR INSTANCE, THE HOME MORTGAGE INTEREST DEDUCTION, NOBODY IS ASKING YOU WHERE YOUR CHILDREN WERE CONCEIVED.

PEOPLE WOULDN'T STAND FOR IT.

I REALLY THINK THERE IS THIS PATERNALISTIC DEGRADING QUALITY THAT SOME OF THESE FORMS CAN HAVE, EVEN IF THERE IS A TECHNICAL REASON THAT YOU NEED TO ASK THAT QUESTION AT SOME POINT OF SOME PEOPLE.

>> YOU MENTIONED A SOCIO-ECONOMIC FACTOR.

YOU ALSO PICK UP ON RACE AS WELL.

WHAT EVIDENCE DID YOU FIND ON THAT FRONT?

>> PART OF THE REASON THAT WE DO NOT HAVE UNIVERSAL SIMPLE BENEFIT SYSTEMS IN THIS COUNTRY LIKE SOME OF OUR PEER COUNTRIES HAVE IS WE WERE CREATING THOSE PROGRAMS OFTEN DURING JIM CROW.

AND WE WANTED TO HAVE WAYS TO GET BENEFITS TO SOME PEOPLE, BUT NOT OTHERS.

JIM CROW OF COURSE WAS A TIME WHEN WE INVENTED A HUGE NUMBER OF ADMINISTRATIVE BURDENS TO MAKE SURE THAT BLACK FOLKS IN THE SOUTH COULDN'T VOTE, BUT WHITE FOLKS COULD WHEN WE COULDN'T LEGISLATE A REAL THAT YOU COULDN'T VOTE IF YOU'RE BLACK.

SO THEY COME UP WITH THESE BUREAUCRATIC PROCEED CHURL THINGS, WHITE FAMILIES CAN VOTE, BLACK FAMILIES CANNOT ALONG WITH THE RACIAL CAMPAIGN OF TERROR OCCURRING IN THE SOUTH AT THE TIME.

BUT NOW WE STILL HAVE THE LEGACY OF THESE NONUNIVERSAL, VERY COMPLICATED SYSTEMS THAT ARE MEANT TO SUSS OUT WHO IS DESERVING AND WHO ISN'T DESERVING BECAUSE OF OUR RACIAL MAKEUP.

AND OTHER COUNTRIES WHEN THEY'RE DESIGNING THESE SYSTEMS, THEY OFTEN --THEY'RE SMALLER AND THEY'RE MORE RACIALLY AND ETHNICALLY HOMOGENOUS THAN THE UNITED STATES.

WE'RE A GRAND EXPERIMENT IN MULTIRACIAL, MULTI-ETHNIC DEMOCRACY, BUT IT DOES.

IT AFFECTS SERVICE DELIVERY.

AND WE STILL HAVE A LEGACY OF THOSE SAME RULES APPLYING TODAY.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SCALE OF THE FRAUD THAT THIS PAPERWORK IS AT LEAST IN THEORY MEANT TO PREVENT, YOU ARGUED THAT IT GOES AFTER THE WRONG VILLAIN, THAT THE REAL MONEY IS STOLEN BY LARGER INSTITUTIONS LIKE HOSPITALS, NURSING HOMES, NOT BY A MOTHER FILLING OUT A S. N. A. P. FORM.

JUST EXPLAIN THAT THESIS AND THEN I'D LIKE TO FOLLOW UP WITH SOME OF THE COUNTERS THAT I'VE ALREADY BEEN PRESENTED FOLLOWING THIS BOOK.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO GENERALLY, IN DOLLAR AMOUNTS, THE MOST FRAUD IS COMMITTED BY INSTITUTIONS AND CRIMINAL GROUPS.

IF YOU ARE A LYING ON YOUR S. N. A. P. APPLICATION, REALISTICALLY, HOW MUCH MONEY ARE YOU GOING TO --ARE YOU GOING TO STEAL $100, $300?

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THAT MUCH MORE.

SO IN DOLLAR TERMS, THE REALLY BIG FRAUDS OCCUR AT THE INSTITUTIONAL LEVEL.

IT'S NOT THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL.

AND WE DON'T HAVE A GREAT SENSE OF HOW MUCH FRAUD THERE IS.

AND WE CAN ALSO CONFLATE FRAUD WITH IMPROPER PAYMENTS WHERE WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD SENSE OF THOSE.

THIS IS MAYBE WHERE YOU GET A LITTLE BIT MORE OR LESS THAN YOU SHOULD BE GETTING.

AND OFTEN IT'S BECAUSE THE RULES ARE UNCLEAR AND THE PAPERWORK ITSELF IS CONFUSING.

SO IT'S HARD FOR INDIVIDUALS TO COMPLY WITH, AND IT'S HARD FOR THE STATE TO SUSS OUT WHO SHOULD BE GETTING WHAT BENEFIT AND AT EXACTLY WHAT LEVEL.

IF PROGRAMS HAD STRAIGHT FORWARD INCOME STANDARDS AND STRAIGHT FORWARD RULES, IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR THE STATE TO ADMINISTER, EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO APPLY FOR, AND WE WOULD HAVE LOWER ERROR RATES THAN WE DO NOW.

AND THIS IS ANOTHER ISSUE WITH HR 1 AND THE SNAP PROGRAM SPECIFICALLY.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS FORCING STATES WITH ERROR RATES OVER 6% TO PAY FOR THE COST OF BENEFITS WHICH ULTIMATELY MIGHT LEAD SOME STATES TO DROP OUT OF THE PROGRAM.

>> SO I GUESS TO COUNTER THE LATTER PART OF YOUR ANSWER THERE, PEOPLE POINT TO THE PANDEMIC ERA OVERSIGHT THAT WAS SUSPENDED.

WE SAW S. N. A. P. OVERPAYMENTS RISE BIG 60%.

WE ATTRIBUTE THAT TO MORE TO CONFUSION AND NOT MALFEASANCE.

"THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" SAYS THESE ARE EXCELLENT POINTS THAT YOU'RE MAKING.

I'M JUST ING THEIR RESPONSE, BUT THIS SUGGESTS THAT THERE SHOULD BE LESS GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION AND NOT MORE, WHICH LEADS ME TO MY FINAL QUESTION.

WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION HERE AND SHOULD WE LOOK TO OTHER COUNTRIES FOR THAT ANSWER?

>> THERE IS.

FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD SAY FRAUD IS ABSOLUTELY AN ISSUE.

AND WE SHOULD GET FRAUD AND IMPROPER PAYMENTS DOWN, MAKING MORE AGILE STATE SYSTEMS WOULD DO THAT.

THIS IS ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT THERE ARE A THOUSAND SOLUTIONS.

THIS IS NOT ONE OF THE ISSUES WHERE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO AND WE CAN'T DO IT.

HAVING THE IRS PREFILL YOUR TAX FORMS WITH AS MUCH INFORMATION THAT THEY CAN SO MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO TO A TAX PREPARER.

MAYBE IT WON'T TAKE YOU THE 12 HOURS IT TAKES THE AVERAGE AMERICAN TO DO THEIR 1040 EVERY YEAR.

IMPROVING CONTRACTING SUCH THAT WE HAVE MORE AGILE SYSTEMS, RIGHT.

WE HAVE GREAT APPS ON OUR PHONE.

WHY IS IT THE GOVERNMENT STUFF IS SO CLUNKY AND SO EXPENSIVE?

AND I THINK THAT JUST DOING SIMPLE THINGS THAT ARE A LITTLE BIT ARCANE, BUT SIMPLIFYING THE INCOME STANDARDS ACROSS PROGRAMS, HAVING THE GOVERNMENT DATA SYSTEMS TALK TO EACH OTHER, RIGHT.

THIS DOESN'T LOOK GOOD ON A BUMPER STICKER.

IT'S NOT EXCITING.

IT'S VERY CONFUSING.

HOWEVER, THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS THAT THE GOVERNMENT COULD REALLY, REALLY HELP EVERYBODY, EVERY AMERICAN WHO IS DEALING WITH THIS.

AND I THINK IT WOULD JUST IMPROVE TRUST IN GOVERNMENT AS WELL.

>> YEAH.

AND YOU GET INTO SOME OF THOSE EXAMPLES IN YOUR BOOK, INCLUDING SOME NORDIC COUNTRIES, INCLUDING ESTONIA AS WELL AND OTHER FORMER BALTIC NATIONS THAT COULD PROVIDE A PATHWAY FOR US TO FOLLOW.

ANNIE WRLOWREY, AUTHOR OF "THE TIME TAX.

. "

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

> >> THE NATION FRACTURED IN TOO.

THAT IS KURT ANDERSEN'S NEW NOVEL "THE BREAKUP" SET IN 2045, THE STORY REVOLVES AROUND A COUPLE DEALING WITH THEIR PRONE MARRIAGE AS AMERICA UNDERGOES ITS OWN UNRAVELING.

THE AUTHOR JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS WHY HE WROTE IT.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

AND KURT ANDERSEN, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> HAPPY TO BE BACK.

>> SO YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "THE BREAKUP. "

IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT TWO BREAKUPS.

THIS WONDERFUL MARRIAGE, A COUPLE THAT IS VERY AMERICAN COUPLE, AND THE BREAKUP OF THE UNITED STATES.

LET'S START WITH THAT SECOND ONE.

YOU'VE BEEN TALKING FOR A WHILE.

YOU WROTE A NEW REPUBLIC PIECE ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU THINK THE U. S. MIGHT BREAK UP.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> SO WHAT I REALIZED IN DOING RESEARCH FOR THE NOVEL, THAT I HAD NEVER PUT TOGETHER IS THERE ARE ALL THESE WAYS IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES IN THE LAST DOZEN YEARS HAS FORMED THESE KIND OF ALTERNATIVE INTERSTATE COMPACTS AND INTERSTATE GOVERNING SYSTEMS PRACTICALLY IN CLIMATE, IN HEALTH.

WE HAVE SANCTUARY CITIES THAT KEPT, YOU KNOW, WOULDN'T USE THE LOCAL POLICE TO ARREST AND DEPORT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

THEN WE HAD SECOND AMENDMENT SANCTUARY COUNTIES AND STATES WHICH I KNEW LITTLE ABOUT ACTUALLY UNTIL I STARTED DOING THE RESEARCH.

SO IT'S NOT AS THOUGH WE HAVE -- WE DON'T HAVE YET OH, TWO COUNTRIES, BUT WE HAVE SORT OF THE EMERGENT FORMATIONS OF ONE.

AND BETWEEN ALL THE THINGS THAT WE'RE ALL FAMILIAR WITH, OF THE DIGITAL BUBBLES IN WHICH WE LIVE.

WE HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE REALITIES TO A SHOCKING DEGREE TO ME.

AND POLARIZATION THAT HAS BEEN WHIPPED UP HIGHER THAN EVER, BOTH BY THE WORDS AND DEEDS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP LAST YEAR AND A HALF.

IT'S HARDER THAN EVER FOR ME TO IMAGINE HOW WE GET BACK TO NORMAL IN THE SENSE OF NOT -- WITHOUT SOME RADICAL TRANSFORMATION.

THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T HAVE TO BE TRIGGERED BY VIOLENCE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT REQUIRES SOME RADICAL DEVOLUTION OF POWER, YOU KNOW, OF THE KIND OF FEDERAL POWER THAT NOW EXISTS.

I DON'T SEE AN ESCAPE FROM IT.

I MEAN, I HOPE I'M WRONG, BUT MY STORY IN "THE BREAKUP" SEEMS MORE PLAUSIBLE TO ME TODAY THAN IT DID FOUR YEARS AGO.

>> YOU SAID SOMETHING A MOMENT AGO WHICH IS WHEN YOU DID THE RESEARCH FOR YOUR NOVEL.

I LOVE THE FACT THAT THE NOVEL ACTUALLY FEELS LIKE YOU'VE THOUGHT IT THROUGH.

YOU'VE RESEARCHED EVERYTHING FROM ROBOTICS TO HOW THE BREAKUP COULD WORK.

ONE OF THE CONFUSING THINGS, THOUGH, IS IT'S NOT LET'S SAY OUR LAST CIVIL WAR WAS NORTH VERSUS SOUTH.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF BUBBLES.

IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHETHER KNOXVILLE, TENNESSEE IS GOING TO BE PART OF ONE UNION OR ANOTHER.

HOW CAN YOU HAVE A BREAKUP THAT SORT OF SCATTERSHOT?

>> HOW IT WORKS IN "THE BREAKUP" THERE IS, AS ONE CHARACTER CALLS IT, A BLUE ARCHIPELAGO ACROSS THE RED SEA OF AMERICA FROM COAST- TO-COAST WHICH IS TO SAY ALL THESE METROPOLITAN AREAS ARE PART OF THE WASHINGTON-RUN BLUE UNITED STATES.

AND THAT WOULD BE TRICKY.

AND YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE AN INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM THAT IS BINATIONAL BETWEEN THIS NEW FREE AMERICAN REPUBLIC AND THE OLD UNITED STATES.

THE OLD UNITED STATES HAS 39 STATES AND THE NEW FREE AMERICAN REPUBLIC WHICH HAS 21.

SO IT'S COMPLICATED.

BUT FOR ME, YOU KNOW, JUST AS WHEN I WRITE HISTORICAL NOVELS, I NEED TO AN EXTREME DEGREE, WHAT WAS REALLY GOING ON THIS DAY THAT I WAS WRITING ABOUT.

I EVEN GO TO THE EXTENT, WAS IT A FULL MOON THAT DAY AND LOOK UP AN OLD ALMANAC TO SEE.

I NEED THE BASIS OF REALITY THEN TO MIX STUFF UP.

THAT'S WHAT I DID HERE.

>> THROUGHOUT TO THE BOOK ARE REFERENCES TO YATES' POEM, "THE SECOND COMING. "

YOU TALK ABOUT THE LACKING CONVICTION, THAT SORT OF THING.

A AND THE WHOLE NOTION IS THAT THE CENTER CANNOT HOLD.

THAT'S THE THEME OF THE POEM.

IS THAT THE PROBLEM YOU SEE IN THE UNITED STATES IS WE USED TO HAVE A CENTER AND NOW IT CANNOT HOLD?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS A CENTER.

IT DOESN'T HAVE --YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TWO PARTIES.

AS BOTH PARTIES BECOME MORE WHAT THEY ARE AND SPEAKING TO THEIR BASES, IT'S HARD TO HAVE A REPRESENTATION OF THAT.

AND HAVE PEOPLE HAPPY IN THE MIDDLE WITH THEIR RESPECTIVE PARTIES, YOU KNOW.

SO THERE IS THAT.

BUT I THINK THE SOCIAL MEDIA AND IT'S BASICALLY EVIL BUSINESS MODELS THAT ENCOURAGE RAGE AND HATRED, THEY DO, AND ANGER.

AND OUR LINEAR TELEVISION NOW GOING AWAY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IN THE CASE OF FOX NEWS, STILL PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN THESE IDEOLOGICAL ALTERNATIVE REALITY BUBBLES.

BUT THE CENTER NOT HOLDING IS PART OF IT.

>> WELL, IT'S NOT SIMPLY IN THE BOOK AND NOT SIMPLY IN AMERICA A LEFT AND RIGHT ISSUE, IS IT?

>> NO, IT ISN'T.

AND GETTING LESS SO IN INTERESTING WAYS TO ME.

I WAS, OF ALL THINGS, ON STEVE BENNETT'S SHOW OVER THE WEEKEND.

AND HE WAS --I WASN'T SEEKING COMMON GROUND WITH HIM, AND HELP WASN'T, BUT WE FOUND, OR IT EMERGED WITHOUT EVEN MENTIONING IT THAT WE'RE BOTH HIGHLY SKEPTICAL OF BIG TECH AND AI AND UNREGULATED SOCIAL MEDIA AND SO MANY THINGS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS BINARY THINKING, YOU'RE THIS TRIPE OR THAT TRIBE AND WE ONLY HAVE TWO TRIBES IS A KIND OF MISREPRESENTATION OF WHAT AMERICA IS.

>> WELL, YOU TALK ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA BEING ONE OF THE CAUSES AND RESENTMENT TO BIG TECH, WHICH SOMEHOW OR ANOTHER YOU, STEVE BANNON AND OTHERS FIND COMMON GROUND ABOUT.

IS THAT GOING TO BE THE GREAT DIVIDE TOO?

WE'RE SEEING THIS BACKLASH AGAINST AI, WHICH BY THE WAY ROBOTS AND AI ARE VERY MUCH IN YOUR BOOK.

THAT GOING TO HELP DIVIDE US AS WELL?

>> ACTUALLY, I THINK THE THING THAT CANNOT DIVIDE US.

I THINK THE OPPOSITION TO DATA CENTERS, AND THAT'S I BELIEVE KIND OF A INTERIM THING.

OH, THEY'RE TAKING ALL MY WATER AND RUINING MY LOCAL LANDSCAPE, SCREW THEM, I DON'T WANT THESE DATA CENTERS HERE.

THAT IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE WHATSOEVER.

>> THE PARALLEL IN YOUR BOOK IS HAVING THE BREAKUP OF THIS MARRIAGE, OF A COUPLE WHO HAS BEEN MARRIED, I CAN'T REMEMBER, 20, 25 YEARS.

YEAH, NATALIE AND ASHER.

FIRST OF ALL, TELL ME REAL QUICKLY ABOUT NATALIE AND THEN ABOUT ASHER, AND HOW THEY BECOME A METAPHOR FOR THE BREAKUP OF THE COUNTRY.

>> NATALIE IS A LITTLE YOUNGER THAN HIM, A GEN Zer.

SHE WAS BORN IN CUBA, MOVED TO --ENDED UP IN EAST TENNESSEE AS AN IMMIGRANT WITH HER PARENTS AND BROTHER.

THAT'S WHO SHE, WORKING CLASS, FINALLY MIDDLE CLASS.

WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG, SMART WITH THE UVA, WENT TO BROWN FOR GRADUATE SCHOOL.

THAT'S WHO SHE IS.

SHE IS A WRITER.

SHE IS A POET TODAY.

AND KIND OF CONSERVATIVE, CERTAINLY COMPARED TO MOST POETS AND ACADEMICS AND HER HUSBAND, FOR INSTANCE, WHO IS WELL TO DO, GREW UP IN LOS ANGELES, SHOW BUSINESS FAMILY, AND NOW RUNS THIS BIG NEUROSCIENCE INSTITUTE IN SAN FRANCISCO.

SO THAT'S WHO THEY ARE.

AND THEY'RE VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE, VERY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, SOME DIFFERENT VIEWS OF SAY, THE SOUTH AND CONSERVATIVES.

AND SHE GOT SOME MORE SLACK.

SHE GREW UP IN EAST TENNESSEE IN A TRAILER PARK, YOU KNOW.

SO THEY'RE DIFFERENT.

AND THEY REFLECT THE DIFFERENCES.

HE IS PERFECTLY FINE WITH AI, WHICH AS HIS PARTNER AT SAYS DOES HALF OUR WORK HERE NOW.

AND SHE IS EX---SHE'S NOT A SKEPTIC.

SHE THINKS IT'S BASICALLY TURNER NICING E E E ING -- TYRANNYING US ALL.

>> YOU HAVE THE BACK STORY OF DONALD TRUMP DIEING THERE THE 1930s AND YOUR OWN BACK STORIES OVER THE YEARS WHEN YOU WERE CREATING.

TELL ME ABOUT THE BACK STORY OF DONALD TRUMP AND HOW THAT REALLY PLAYS IN TO WHAT'S HAPPENED OR IS THAT JUST SORT OF A SIDESHOW IN WHAT'S HAPPENED IN AMERICA?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S --IT'S NOT A SIDESHOW IN THE LONG HISTORY OF AMERICA AT ALL.

I THINK HE IS UNQUESTIONABLY AN HISTORIC FIGURE.

YOU KNOW, NOT AS HE SAID LAST WEEK AS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME, BUT AN HISTORIC FIGURE, NO QUESTION.

SO IN MY STORY, "THE BREAKUP" STORY, I SET OUT NOT WANTING HIM TO BE THERE THAT MUCH.

IT'S 19 YEARS IN THE FUTURE.

I DON'T THINK WE'LL ALL STILL BE THINKING EVERY HOUR ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, GOD WISHES IT.

I COULDN'T LOSE HIM ALL TOGETHER.

SO AS I FINISHED THE DRAFT, I WENT THROUGH AND I SAID HE IS STILL HERE TOO MUCH.

SO I PLUCKED HIM OUT AND PLUCKED HIM OUT.

BUT HE'S THERE BECAUSE DESCRIBING WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN 2026 AND 2045 REQUIRED THE LATE 20s, RIGHT?

AND HIS -- THE TRUMPIAN HEIRS IN THE FUTURE.

AND I DECIDED THERE WOULD BE ONE SCENE OF DONALD TRUMP, WHICH IS HIS DEATH.

HIS DEATH, WHICH IS LIKE A TV SHOW BASICALLY, BECAUSE HE HAS MADE IT A TV SHOW, AS HE DOES EVERYTHING.

HE IS ON THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF HIS FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT FOR HIS PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDACY.

HE IS COMING DOWN TO BE GREETED BY THE GATHERED THOUSANDS IN TRUMP TOWER DOWN THE GOLDEN ESCALATOR AND DIES BECAUSE HE IS 89 YEARS OLD.

AND THAT BECOMES A KIND --NOT EXACTLY A SPARK FOR THE UPRISING, BUT A PIECE OF THE YEAR BEFORE THE UPRISING.

AND, FOR ME, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO SAY I'M SHERLOCK AND HE IS MORIARTY AND WE'VE BEEN BATTLING FOR 40 YEARS, BUT, YOU KNOW, NOT ENTIRELY UNTRUE.

SO I --SINCE I WAS MAKING IT UP, I CAN MAKE UP HIS DEATH.

AND OF COURSE THE COMPLAINTS I GOT FROM MANY PEOPLE, STRANGERS WHO SAY WHY DID YOU DO THIS?

I DON'T WANT TO WAIT 19 YEARS.

I MORE CHARITABLY SAID NO, THIS IS IT.

YOU KNOW, HE IS A VERY OLD MAN AND HE DIES, AS WE ALL DO WHEN WE'RE OLD MEN.

>> YOU STARTED WRITING THIS BOOK DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

HOW DID IT EVOLVE WHEN TRUMP GETS A NOMINATION AGAIN, COMES BACK AGAIN?

>> NO, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

IN FACT, I STARTED WRITING IT A MONTH BEFORE CHATGPT AND WHAT WE THEN CALLED GENERATIVE AI APPEARED.

SO I HAD TO INVENT MY NEAR FUTURE WORLD AND HOW THAT WOULD WORK.

AND I'M PRETTY HAPPY THAT WHAT I INVENTED WAS NOT --I DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT OVER, START OVER AGAIN.

ONCE WE SAW THESE CHATBOTS AROUND.

TRUMP WAS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

YES, HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE WHEN I STARTED.

HE WASN'T ABOUT TO WALK INTO IT AGAIN AND WAS BEING PROSECUTED AND ALL THAT.

SO FOR THAT REASON AND OTHERS, BUT ALL KINDS OF REASONS, I DIDN'T WANT TO PREDICT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT YEAR, THE YEAR AFTER.

MY NEAR FUTURE COULDN'T BE THAT NEAR.

SO HE WAS IN THE BACKGROUND.

AND I WAS VAGUE ENOUGH ABOUT THE 20s AND 30s TO WRITE AROUND IT EFFECTIVELY.

OH, WHO KNOWS.

MY BASIC STORY FROM THE BEGINNING IS THE DEMOCRATS HAVE A BIG COMEBACK AND THE RIGHT HAS A VIOLENT SPASM OF BACKLASH AGAINST THAT.

THAT WASN'T CHANGED.

WHAT CHANGED AS THIS LAST YEAR AND A HALF OF TRUMP CAME IN WAS THE DARKNESS OF MY BACK STORY.

I DIDN'T CHANGE EVENTS REALLY, BUT WHAT MY CHARACTERS ACTUALLY ASHER AND NATALIE WERE GOING THROUGH IN THE '20s AND BICKERING OVER POLITICS.

AND WHAT NATALIE SAYS AT ONE POINT AND THIS WAS NEW IN A SUBSEQUENT DRAFT IS THAT WE BICKERED LESS WHEN TRUMP CAME IN BECAUSE FINALLY, HE WAS RIGHT, I WAS WRONG, TRUMP IS EVERY BIT AS BAD AS HE PREDICTED AND I WAS POOH- POOHING THAT AND SAID DEMOCRACY IS NOT UNDER THREAT.

SO I DID HAVE TO CHANGE THAT AND DARKEN, IF YOU WILL, THOSE YEARS.

SO, YOU KNOW, SELFISHLY, I WAS HAPPY THAT IT DIDN'T REQUIRE ME TO DO MASSIVE RE-ENGINEERING OF THIS COMPLICATED PLOT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME IS AT THE END OF SOME OF YOUR SECTIONS OR CHAPTERS, YOU HAD WHAT YOU CALL YOUR MANDATORY AI DISCLOSURE, WHICH IS FICTIONAL.

IT'S NOT EXACTLY HOW YOU USED IT.

WHY DO YOU PUT THAT IN, AND TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU FEEL YOU SHOULD BE DISCLOSING THE AI USE.

>> YOU'RE THE FIRST PERSON TO ASK ABOUT THAT THING, AND I'M GLAD YOU DO, WALTER.

IT'S NOT REAL BECAUSE IT SAYS THE SUCH AND SUCH APP IN 2035.

SO IT IS THE FUTURE.

I PUT IT IN FOR VARIOUS REASONS, BOTH PLOT-DRIVEN THAT I WON'T REVEAL, BECAUSE IT WOULD BE A SPOILER, BUT BITS AND PIECES WHICH AI HAS SIGNIFICANTLY COLLABORATED ON OR IN THE CASE OF LATER ON, SOME STUFF WHERE THERE IS AN AI TALKING AS AN AI.

IT'S FULL-ON AI GENERATED THING.

AND IT'S NOT TRUE, OF COURSE.

I WROTE IT.

I HAVE NOW NOT NOW NOR EVER USED AN AI TO GENERATE SE THAT I CLAIM TO BE MINE.

THAT I THOUGHT AS A SMALL WAY THAT REGULATION WILL BE AND IS REQUIRED OF THAT, I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE AN ABSOLUTE REVOLUTION OF HOW MUCH ANY GIVEN PIECE OF CONTENT WHERE I USE WITH QUOTES IS IMPORTANT TO DO.

THAT WON'T BE THE WHOLE DEAL, BUT DISCLOSURE OF THAT I THINK WILL BE AS IMPORTANT.

AND I CAN EASILY IMAGINE.

I'M HAPPY IF SUCH A THING AS I HAVE IN THIS NOVEL DOESN'T EXIST IN 2045.

>> EVER SINCE YOU AND I WORKED AT "TIME" MAGAZINE IN THE 1980s, YOU'VE BEEN THE PERSON WHO'S ALWAYS STOOD AT THE INTERSECTION OF CULTURE, POPULAR CULTURE, AND THEN POLITICS AND OUR SOCIETY.

AND YOU DID IT WITH STUDIO 360.

YOU DID IT WITH SPY MAGAZINE.

WHAT CAN POPULAR CULTURE AND THE FACT THAT WE DO SHARE SO MUCH WHEN IT COMES TO EVERYTHING FROM MUSIC TO ART TO LITERATURE, HOW CAN THAT HELP BRING US BACK TOGETHER, I GUESS, FROM THIS SCENARIO YOU'VE PAINTED?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING.

I MENTIONED THIS TO STEVE BANNON THE OTHER DAY, BECAUSE HE PLAYED BEFORE EVERY BREAK IN THE HOUR HE SPENT WITH ME A VIDEO OF DOLLY PARTON.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW GREAT SHE WAS.

I USED A SECOND OR THIRD OF THOSE TO SAY I AGREE.

I ADORE HER.

I'VE ADORED HER SINCE I WAS A KID.

AND SHE MAY BE THE LAST ICONIC AMERICAN POP CULTURAL FIGURE TO BRIDGE ALL THE GAPS, CULTURALLY, REGIONALLY, POLITICALLY, EVERYTHING, AND NOT BY BEING MILQUETOAST.

SHE TAKES POSITIONS ON GAY PEOPLE AND TRANS PEOPLE AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

SOME PEOPLE FROM EAST TENNESSEE WHERE SHE GREW UP WOULDN'T LIKE.

BUT SHE IS AN EMBODIMENT OF THAT.

AND THE FACT THAT SHE DIED, EVERYBODY HAS TO DIE, BUT AS I HAVE JUST PUBLISHED THIS BOOK ABOUT LOSING EXACTLY THAT KIND OF BONDING AGENT OR EMBODIMENT FOR AMERICA, YEAH, SHE IS NOT BLUE, SHE'S NOT RED, SHE IS EVERYBODY, IT WILL SEEM METAPHORICALLY APT.

I WILL RELATE TO WHAT IS HAPPENING OR IS HAPPENING TO THE UNITED STATES IN MY STORY, BUT THE THREE TELEVISION NETWORKS, FEWER CHANNELS OF POPULAR CULTURE, IT WAS EASIER TO EVERYBODY WATCH THE SAME STUFF, EVERYBODY LISTEN TO THE SAME STUFF.

THE BULKIZATION OF CULTURE WHICH IS NOT ALL TOGETHER A BAD THING HAS PROBABLY FED THIS SENSE THAT WE ALL LIVE IN OUR OWN LITTLE WORLDS, OUR OWN TRIBES, OUR OWN SUBGENRES OF CULTURE.

>> KURT ANDERSEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> A PLEASURE.

> >> AND FINALLY, WALKING 2,190 MILES IS NO MEAN FEAT, BUT IMAGINE DOING IT AT THE AGE OF 91.

THAT'S RIGHT.

THIS MAN DAY "GRAYBEARD" SANDERS HAS JUST RECLAIMED HIS RECORD OF BEING THE OLDEST HIKER TO COMPLETE THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL.

HE BEGAN THE THROUGH HIKE EARLY LAST SEPTEMBER IN WEST VIRGINIA, TAKING A FEW BREAKS OF HIS JOURNEY TO MOUNT KATADIN IN MAINE WHERE HE SUMMITED.

IT WAS NOT WITHOUT CHALLENGES.

HE FELL 71 TIMES ALONG THE WAY, FEELING A HUGE DIFFERENCE ON THIS ATTEMPT COMPARED TO HIKING IT AT 82 WHEN HE FIRST BROKE THE RECORD.

STILL, HE HOPING IT ENCOURAGES OTHERS TO GIVING THE SEECHLINGLY IMPOSSIBLE A TRY AT ANY AGE.

THAT'S OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD NIGHT FROM NEW YORk.