( music ) >>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE LIFE OF ROY CONE, YOU SEE INTO THE SOUL OF DONALD TRUMP.

>> BREAKING DOWN THE TRUMP PLAYBOOK.

A LOOK AT THE RED SCALE LAWYER WHO MENTORED THE PRESIDENT AND TAUGHT HIM MANY OF THE TACTICS AND TRICK S HE USES TODAY.

> >> IF SHE CAN MANAGE TO RAISE THE BLOOD MONEY THAT THE VICTIM'S FAMILY DEMANDS, SHE HAS A WAY OUT.

>> A IRECTOR TELLS ME ABOUT THE MAKING OF HER DOCUMENTARY.

WHAT SHE LEARNED ABOUT THE LINE BETWEEN JUSTIN AND VENGANCE.

>> THERE WAS DISTRUST WITH LAW ENFORCE MENT.

LAW ENFORCEMENT WAS THE INSTITUTION THAT PAID FOR THE SAFETY AND HOME AND THINGS WE HAD.

>> A JOURNALIST SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT LIVING THROUGH MARRY ARE A DOCHL, GROWING UP AS THE SON OF TWO BLACK COPS IN THE UNITED STATES.

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>> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- > >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AS VOTERS HEAD TO THE POLLS, WE WANT TO LOOK BACK AT SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS THAT STRUCK US THIS YEAR AND AT SOME OF THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL MOMENTS IN WASHINGTON AND BEYOND.

FROM EMBROILING THE UNITED STATES IN THE STALEMATED WAR WITH IRAN TO UNLEASHING ATTACKS AGAINST HISTORIC ALLIES.

PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SECOND STIPT AT THE WHITE HOUSE IS MIRED IN CONTROVERSY.

INCLUDING RELENTLESS ATTACKS ON AMERICAN'S INTEREST PRESS.

TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S BEEN DRIVING SOME OF THE SEISMIC CHANGES IN TRUMP 2.

0, WE BEGIN WITH MY CONVERSATION WITH KY BIRD, AN AUTHOR AND SELF-DESCRIBED BIOGRAPHER OF THE AMERICAN ESTABLISHMENT.

HIS LATEST BOOK, "AMERICAN SCOUNDREL" LOOK S AT THE LIFE OF THE FIXER.

HERE IS IS THAT CONVERSATION.

WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM FROM OUR STUDIOS IN NEW YORK.

LET ME GIVE YOU OR GIVE OU VIEWERS THE SUBTITLE OF YOUR BOOK.

THAT'S GOING TO RICK UP EVERYBODY'S EARS.

EXPLAIN THAT.

IT'S A BIG ARC.

SOMEHOW HE WAS THERE AT ALL THE WRONG TIMES.

>> YES.

I HAVE BEEN WORKING, LIVING WITH ROY FOR FOUR YEARS NOW.

I'M EAGER TO TELL THE ARC OF HIS STORY.

IT'S AN INCREDIBLE LIFE, AN IMPORTANT LIFE.

HE WAS SENATOR JOE M cCARTHY'S CHIEF COUNSEL.

BEFORE THAT, HE WAS ONE OF THE PROSECUTORS WHO SENT THE S TO THE ELECTRIC CHAIR FOR ATOMIC SPYING.

THEN AS JOE McCARTHY'S CHIEF COUNSEL, HE SORT OF WAS THE BRAIN FOR THE SENATOR AND HIS WITCH HUNT AGAINST AMERICAN COMMUNISTS IN THE EARLY 1950s.

THEN THE ARC GOES BACK TO NEW YORK AND WHERE HE BECOMES A MOB LAWYER FOR ALL FIVE MOB FAMILIES.

THEN IN OCTOBER OF 1973, HE MEETS A YOUNG REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER NAMED DONALD TRUMP.

THEY CLICK.

HE BECOMES HIS LAWYER FOR THE NEXT 13 YEARS.

HE REALLY MOLDS DONALD TRUMP INTO WHAT WE SEE TODAY, A MAN WHO I THINK IS ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL PRESIDENTS WE HAVE HAD.

ACTUALLY, CONSEQUENTIAL OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS.

IT'S AN INCREDIBLE STORY.

>> IT IS.

IT'S ALSO INCREDIBLE TO THINK THAT HE BECAME SO CONSEQUENTIAL THROUGH THE CAUSES AND PEOPLE HE SERVED.

AT ONE POINT, YOU WRITE AND WE REMEMBER IT REPORTED THAT DURING TRUMP 1.

0 WHEN HE WAS UNDERGOING ALL SORTS OF IES FROM THE JUSTICE DEMOCRAT AND THE RUSSIA AND ALL THIS, HE SAID, WHERE IS MY ROY COHEN?

WHAT DID THAT MEAN?

ROY BY THAT TIME WAS LONG DEAD.

>> ROY WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO DONALD TRUMP, TO HIS RISE, TO HOW HE THINKS OF HIMSELF.

ROY'S IMAGE WAS THAT OF A TOUGH MINDED, NO NONSENSE LAWYER WHO TAUGHT DONALD TRUMP HOW TO DOLE WITH THE PRESS, HOW TO DEAL WITH COURTS, HOW TO ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK WHEN YOU ARE ATTACKED.

HOW TO NEVER APOLOGIZE.

HOW TO BE BRAZEN IN YOUR BREAKING OF THE RULES.

THIS IS --THIS WAS ROY'S PERSONA.

I DON'T THINK YOU CAN UNDERSTAND OUR CURRENT PRESIDENT --HE IS TOO HE HAVE FEMORAL FOR A BIOGRAPHER.

YOU CAN'T TRUST WHAT HE SAYS.

HE IS NOT A STORYTELLER.

HE HAS STRONG OPINIONS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE LIFE OF ROY COHEN, YOU SUDDENLY SEE INTO THE SOUL OF DONALD TRUMP.

IT'S AN ASTONISHING THING TO SAY, BUT IT'S TRUE.

>> OF COURSE, THERE HAVE BEEN FILMS MADE ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP, "THE APRESENT SIS. "

HE PLANTED THE SEEDS OF AMERICA'S DISSENT.

YOU BASICALLY TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN EPIPHANY.

YOU AT FIRST HAD A DIFFERENT ASSESSMENT OF ROY.

>> YES.

EXACTLY.

I'M AN HISTORIAN BASICALLY OF THE AMERICAN ESTABLISHMENT.

40 YEARS AGO, I STARTED OUT WRITING BIOGRAPHIES OF POWERFUL INDIVIDUALS WHO EXPLAIN HOW DEMOCRACY WORKS IN THIS COMPLICATED COUNTRY.

SO I TACKLED MEN LIKE JOHN J. McCLOY, THE WALL STREET LAWYER, ROCKEFELLER LAWYER.

ROBERT OPOPPENHEIMER, THE PHYSICIST WHO GAVE US THE ATOMIC BOMB.

JIMMY CARTER.

THESE ARE ALL MEN THAT I FOUND FASCINATING AS VEHICLES TO EXPLAIN HOW POWER WORKS IN AMERICA.

THEY WERE MEMBERS OF SORT OF A BIPARTISAN ESTABLISHMENT.

McCLOY WAS A REPUBLICAN.

LIBERAL REPUBLICAN BUT HE WORKED FOR DEMOCRATS AND FOR REPUBLICANS.

I SUDDENLY REALIZED AFTER FINISH MiG BIOGRAPHY OF JIMMY CARTER, I HAD WRITTEN ABOUT ROY COHEN IN ALL OF THESE BOOKS IN A PARAGRAPH OR A COUPLE OF PAGES ABOUT THIS ANNOYING RELATIVELY MINOR HISTORICAL FIGURE, ROY COHEN.

I SUDDENLY HAD THIS EPIPHANY THE WORLD I HAD BEEN WRITING ABOUT, THAT ESTABLISHMENT, IS GONE.

IT'S DEAD.

THE CULTURE AND THE POLITICAL VALUES AND THE RUTHLESSNESS AND DIVISIVE POLITICS OF ROY COHEN ARE NOW HAUNTING US FROM HIS GRAVE.

THAT WAS A DIFFICULT THING --REALIZATION TO COME TO.

BUT I REALIZED I WAS WRONG IN MY ASSESSMENT OF ROY COHEN.

HE IS A MORE IMPORTANT AND SIGNIFICANT HISTORICAL FIGURE.

HE EXPLAINED ABOUT HOW POWER WORTHS IN AMERICA.

HE IS EXPLAINING THE DARK SIDE.

THAT'S THE SUBTITLE OF THE BOOK, THE DARK JOURNEY OF ROY COHEN FROM JOE McCARTHY TO DONALD TRUMP.

AS AN HISTORIAN AS READERS, WE HAVE TO GRAPPLE WITH THE DARK SIDE AS WELL.

>> HE WAS ALSO CLEARLY A SOCIETY FIGURE.

HE HAD FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES, IN JOURNALISM AND ELSEWHERE.

DEMOCRATS, NOT JUST REPUBLICANS.

HE WAS VERY ATTRACT --EVEN NANCY RA REAGAN WOULD INVITE HIM TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

I DON'T KNOW, DEFENDING THE MOB AND DOING THOSE THINGS, AND THE HORRENDOUS RED SCARE.

>> YES.

HE WAS A VERY INTIMIDATING FIGURE.

THE COVER OF THE BOOK HAS THIS AMAZING PHOTOGRAPH OF HIM SCARING INTO THE CAMERA SKOULING.

IT'S SAME IMAGE THAT DONALD TRUMP CHOSE TO PROJECT AS HIS OFFICIAL PORTRAIT AS PRESIDENT.

HE WANTED TO BE FEARED.

ROY COHEN WANTED TO BE FEARED.

ONE OF THE THINGS I HAD TO STRUGGLE WITH IN EXPLAINING IN THE BOOK WAS, HOW ROY COHEN COULD HAVE MADE HIS WAY THROUGH NEW YORK SOCIETY.

HOW HE WAS STILL ACCEPTABLE IN POLITE COMPANY.

HE WOULD HOST A BIRTHDAY PARTY FOR HIMSELF AT STUDIO 54 OR THE NEW YORK ARMORY OR OTHER VENUES IN MANHATTAN.

HE WOULD INVITE 200 OR 300 OF THE CITY'S ELITE, JOURNALISTS, POLITICIANS, JUDGES, FELLOW LAWYERS, CELEBRITIES, IMPORTANT PEOPLE.

LIBERALS OFTEN.

THEY WOULD ALL COME KNOWING EXACTLY WHO ROY COHEN WAS.

KNOWING WHAT HE HAD DONE DURING THE McCARTHY YEARS.

KNOWING HE WAS A MOB LAWYER.

THEY WERE FASCINATED BY HIM.

THEY CAME BECAUSE HE WAS THE TRAIN WRACK THEY COULDN'T TAKE THEIR EYES OFF OF.

>> YOU POINT OUT --WE KNOW THIS --THAT ONCE THE McCARTHY HEARINGS WERE PUBLIC AND PEOPLE GOT TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON AND McCARTHY HIMSELF WAS EXPOSED, THEY BASICALLY WERE UNDONE.

McCARTHY AND ROY COHEN.

WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM?

DID HE GO INTO SELF-IMPOSED EXILE?

HOW LONG BETWEEN THAT AND M EET MEETING DONALD TRUMP?

>> YOU WOULD THINK HE WOULD HIDE.

THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

HE LEFT WASHINGTON WHEN HE WAS FIRED AS CHIEF COUNSEL IN THE WAKE OF THE HEARINGS, WHICH WERE VERY CONTROVERSIAL.

HE WAS PERCEIVED AS A SCOUNDREL ON NATIONAL TELEVISION, SEEN BY 20 MILLION PEOPLE.

HE IS FIRED, BUT YOU COMES BACK HERE TO NEW YORK.

THAT VERY MONTH, HE IS CELEBRATED AT A DINNER AT THE HOTEL ASTOR IN TIMES SQUARE.

HE MAKES HIS WAY IN NEW YORK SOCIETY AS A HIGH PRICED DIVORCE LAWYER FOR THE RICH AND FAMOUS.

THEN HE BEGINS TO ASSOCIATE WITH VARIOUS MOBSTERS OUT IN LAS VEGAS.

HE GETS INDIETED THREE TIMES.

THEN HE GETS OFF IN JURY TRIALS THREE TIMES.

COMING BACK TO THE McCARTHY THING, THIS IS THE OTHER REVELATION THAT I HAD AS AN HISTORIAN.

I THOUGHT EARLY IN MY CAREER AS AN HISTORIAN AND BIOGRAPHER THAT THE McCARTHY ERA WAS A LOW POINT IN AMERICAN HISTORY, IT WAS -- IT IT WAS AN ABERRATION AS WELL.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS TERRIBLE THAT HAPPENED, BUT WE GOT POST AST IT.

WE DEFEATED McCARTHYISM.

I REALIZE THAT WASN'T TRUE.

McDARTHYISM PLANTED THE SEEDS OF TRUMPISM.

GOING BACK IN HISTORY, IT'S CLEAR THAT WE AMERICANS, THOUGH WE ARE A LIBERAL COUNTRY OF IMMIGRANTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES AND A CONSTITUTION THAT GARREN TEASE FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND ALL THAT, EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, EVERY FEW DECADES IN FACT, WE GO THROUGH A PERIOD OF PARANOIA.

WE HAD A RED SCARE IN THE 1920s.

WE HAD THE McCARTHY WITCH HUNTS IN THE 1950s.

WE HAD SIMILAR TROUBLES IN THE '70s AND '80s, THE AFTERMATH OF THE VICE-ETNAM WAR.

NOW WE ARE DEALING WITH TRUMP.

IT'S THE SAME PATTERN.

RATHER THAN McCARTHY BEING DEFEATED, I THINK ROY COHEN PLANTED THE SEEDS OF WHAT WE SEE TODAY AS IN THE TRUMP ERA.

>> IT'S A FASCINATING ARC.

OBVIOUSLY, IT'S IMPORTANT NOW FOR ME TO ASK YOU, WHAT WAS THE MEETING BETWEEN ROY COHEN AND DONALD TRUMP AND THE CASE THAT BOUND THEM TOGETHER WHEN TRUMP WAS STILL A DEVELOPER?

>> THEY MET FIRST IN OCTOBER OF 1973 AT A PRIVATE DINNER CLUB CALLED LA CLUB IN MIDTOWN MANHATTAN.

THERE ARE SEVERAL ACCOUNTS OF THIS FIRST MEETING.

THE YOUNG DONALD TRUMP WAS 27 YEARS OLD.

HE WAS VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN.

ROY WAS A CELEBRITY MOB LAWYER.

BY ALL ACCOUNTS, THE YOUNG DONALD TRUMP SAW ROY SITTING AT A NEARBY TABLE AND WENT OVER AND INTRODUCED HIMSELF.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I HAVE HAD SEVERAL -- FOUR TELEPHONE INTERVIEWS WITH DONALD TRUMP AS PRESIDENT WHILE RESEARCHING THIS BOOK.

THE FIRST, THEY WERE ALL COLD CALLS, BY THE WAY.

I JUST DIALED THE NUMBER AND HE PICKED UP ON HIS PERSONAL CELL NUMBER.

ON THE FIRST OCCASION, I ASKED HIM ABOUT THIS OCTOBER MEETSING.

HE TURNED THE STORY UPSIDE DOWN.

CLAIMED THAT IT WAS ROY COHEN WHO CAME OVER TO HIM, TO HIS TABLE, RECOGNIZING THE UP AND COMING FAMOUS REAL ESTATE DEVELOPER.

THIS IS A LITTLE NARCISSISTIC STORYTELLING I THINK.

I THINK WHAT REALLY HAPPENS WAS THAT TRUMP WENT OVER TO ROY AND INTRODUCED HIMSELF AND EXPLAINED THAT HE WAS BEING SUED BY THE FEDS FOR DISCRIMINATION AGAINST BLACKS IN THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION'S APARTMENTS IN QUEENS.

IT WAS AN OPEN AND SHUT CASE.

THEY WERE BLATANTLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST BLACKS.

ROY GAVE DONALD TRUMP THIS LEGAL ADVICE.

DON'T SETTLE.

DON'T SIGN ANY DISSENT DECREE.

SUE THEM.

SUE THE FEDS AND CLAIM DEFAMATION.

SUE THEM FOR $100 MILLION.

THE YOUNG DONALD TRUMP REALLY LIKED THIS IDEA.

ROY ORGANIZED A PRESS CONFERENCE.

THEY ANNOUNCED THE SUIT.

IT CREATED HEADLINES WHICH ED DONALD TRUMP.

OF COURSE, THE SUIT WAS FRIVOLOUS AND A JUDGE THREW IT OUT WITHIN TWO MONTHS.

ROY MANAGED TO SORT OF STRING OUT THE CASE.

THIS CASE STRETCHED OUT FOR ANOTHER TWO AND A HALF YEARS UNTIL FINALLY DONALD TRUMP HAD TO SIGN A CONSENT DECREE, THE SAME KIND OF DOCUMENT HE COULD HAVE SIGNED AT THE VERY BEGINNING.

SO THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

IT BECAME A VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP.

THEY TALKED ON THE PHONE A DOZEN TYPES A DAY.

ROY REALLY FORMED THE YOUNG DONALD AND TAUGHT HIM HOW TO DEAL WITH THE NEW YORK CITY ELITE.

>> IN THE END, DID DONALD TRUMP SORT OF DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM ROY COHEN?

ROY COHEN WAS GAY.

HE KEPT IT VERY HIDDEN.

THAT WAS PART OF HIS SORT OF TORTURED EXISTENCE.

HE DID HAVE AIDS.

HE DIED OF THAT.

WHAT WAS TRUMP'S REACTION TO THAT AND HIS DEALINGS WITH ROY COHEN WHEN HE WAS ON HIS -- >> WELL, WE ARE ALL TOLD THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS --HAS BEEN A GERMAPHOBE MOST OF HIS LIFE.

WHEN HE LEARNED ROY WAS DYING OF AIDS, HE KEPT HIS DISTANCE.

HE DIDN'T RELY ON HIM AS MUCH FOR LAWYERING.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE DID A VERY NICE THING FOR ROY AT THE END OF HIS LIFE, ABOUT FOUR MONTHS BEFORE HE DIED.

HE INVITED HIM DOWN TO HIS NEW RESORT AT MAR-A-LAGO AND HOSTED A PRIVATE DINNER FOR 20 OF ROY'S FRIENDS AND TRUMP'S FRIENDS.

THEY TOASTED ROY HE HAVE FEW RECEIVELY.

THEN AFTERWARDS, TRUMP TOLD THE STAFF TO WASH THE SILVERWARE IN PEROXIDE, WHICH MAKE S NO S SENSE IF YOU ARE A GERMAPHOBE, I SUPPOSE.

WE HAVE ONE WITNESS TO --AFTER ROY DIED, THERE WAS A MEMORIAL SERVICE.

TRUMP APPEARED AND SAT AT THE BACK OF THE ROOM.

A JOURNALIST WHO KNEW BOTH MEN VERY WELL AND WHO DID EXTENSIVE INTERVIEWS WITH ROY AND ACTUALLY AFTER HE DIED HIS WIDOW GAVE US ACCESS TO OVER 1,000 PAGES OF TRANSCRIPTS OF THE INTERVIEWS, ANYWAY, WE KNOW THAT HE WITNESSED DONALD TRUMP AT THE MEMORIAL SERVICE WEEPING.

WEEPING FOR THE LOSS OF ROY COHEN.

I FIND THAT A SORT OF TELLING AND SURPRISING DETAIL.

WE HAVE NEVER SEEN DONALD TRUMP IN PUBLIC GENUINELY WEEPING OR FEELING EMPATHY FOR OTHER PEOPLE OR LAUGHING AGAIN GENUINELY.

IT'S EVIDENCE OF HOW CLOSE HE WAS TO ROY.

THEY WERE --IT WAS A GENUINE FRIENDSHIP.

>> AN INTERESTING NOTE TO END ON.

A CONSEQUENTIAL ONE.

AS YOU SAY, IN THE DARK ARTS AND YOU SAY THE DISSENT OF AMERICAN POLITICS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

AUTHOR OF "AMERICAN SCOUNDREL. "

>> THANK YOU.

> >> WE TURN TO IRAN.

THIS YEAR'S WAR HAS TAKEN A HEAVY TOLL ON INNOCENT PEOPLE TRAPPED BETWEEN ISRAELI AND AMERICAN BOMBS AND THE RUTHLESS REGIME OF THE AYATOLLAHS.

HARDLINERS HAVE BEEN TIGHTENING THEIR GRIP AS MOUNTING ECONOMIC HARDSHIPS CAUSE LARGELY BY SANCTIONS AND NOW THE U. S. BLOCKADE OF IRANIAN PORTS PUSHING ORDINARY IRANIANS TO BREAKING POINT.

AN EYE FOR AN EYE IS A DOCUMENTARY WHICH LOOKS AT REALITIES OF LIFE IN IRAN AND PUTS A HUMAN FACE ON THE PEOPLE OFF, OFTEN PEOPLE, TRAPPED IN A MISOGYNISTIC JUSTICE SYSTEM.

IT FOLLOWS A MOTHER WHO SPENT 14 YEARS IN JAIL AFTER CONFESSING TO HAVING MURDERED HER ABUSIVE HUSBAND.

NOW FREE, UNDER IRAN'S LAW, SHE STILL MUST COME UP WITH AN UNATTAINABLE SUM OF BLOOD MONEY SET BY HER IN-LAWS OR THEY COULD DEMAND HER EXECUTION.

HERE IS A SHORT CLIP OF HER AND HER SON EXPLAINING THEIR IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE.

>> I SPOKE TO THE DIRECTOR ABOUT HER PROJECT.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> LET'S START FROM THE BEGINNING.

IT'S REALLY A MURDER, BLOOD MONEY, YOU KNOW, HUMAN RIGHTS, IF YOU LIESHGS KE, WOMEN'S RIGHTS STORY.

THAT'S HOW I SEE IT.

GIVE ME A PREVIEW OF WHAT HAPPENED.

THE CHARACTERS ARE VERY COMPLEX.

IT'S NOT --THERE'S A LOT OF GRAY MATTER INVOLVED.

WHAT DROVE THE WOMAN TO COMMIT MURDER AND KILL HER HUSBAND?

>> WELL, ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO, SHE THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO MURDER HER HUSBAND, STRANGLE HIM WITH A SCARF, WITH THE HELP OF HER TWO DAUGHTERS.

THIS WAS AFTER YEARS OF ABUSE.

HE WAS AN OPIUM ADDICT.

SHE HAD BEEN LIVING BASICALLY IN HELL.

ONE OF THE THINGS ACTUALLY THAT INTERESTED ME IN MAKING THIS FILM WAS, WHAT WOULD DRIVE A WOMAN TO THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO MURDER HER HUSBAND?

WHAT IS THE BACK STORY?

WE EXPLORE IT IN THE FILM.

SHE TRIED AT SOME POINT TO GET A DIVORCE AND WENT TO THE COURT.

AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR WOMEN TO GET A DIVORCE.

A MAN CAN JUST SIMPLY DIVORCE A WOMAN.

SHE WENT AND SHE EXPLAINED HOW HORRIBLE HE WAS --HE BEAT HER IN THE HEAD AND HE IS ABUSIVE.

APPARENTLY, THE JUDGE SAID TO HER, LADY, IT SOUNDS LIKE CHILD'S PLAY.

GO HOME.

THIS IS A KINDERGARTEN FIGHT.

GO AND MAKE DUE.

SHE TRIED TO GET HER FATHER TO HELP HER, WHICH IS REALLY THE OTHER SOURCE OF SUPPORT IS USUALLY IT'S YOUR FAMILY, YOUR FATHER.

HE TOLD HER, YOU KNOW, YOU LEFT HERE IN A WHITE DRESS.

YOU WILL RETURN IN A WHITE DRESS.

WHICH MEANS, YOU WILL RETURN ONCE YOU HAVE DIED.

SHE HAD ABSOLUTELY NO BACKING.

SHE JUST TOOK MATTERS INTO HER OWN HANDS.

>> YES.

THEN THE STORY GOES THAT SHE AND HER FAMILY, HER TWO DAUGHTERS AND MAYBE HELP FROM ANOTHER CHARACTER, URIED THE BODY IN HER HOUSE.

THEN IT FIN CONTINUES.

THE BODY WAS DISCOVERED.

THEN STARTED THE JUDICIAL PART OF THIS, WHICH FORMS THE BASIS OF THE FILM.

SHE SPENT 14 YEARS IN JAIL.

THEN WHEN SHE CAME OUT, THAT WASN'T ENOUGH.

YOUR SHE HAD TO PAY BLOOD MONEY TO THE FAMILY OF HER HUSBAND OR THEY WOULD HAVE THE DECISION TO FORGIVE OR SEPTEMBER ND HER TO EXECUTION.

THAT TURNED OUT TO BE A DIFFICULT PROCESS.

CAN I ASK WHY YOU CALL IT AN EYE FOR AN EYE?

SOMETHING THAT COMES UP IN EVERY RELIGIOUS TEXT FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT, AND ON AND ON, THE BIBLE.

>> THIS IS ACTUALLY THE SHA RHEA LAW THAT WE ARE WATCHING PLAY ITSELF OUT.

THIS IS RETALIATION IN KIND.

AN EYE FOR AN EYE IN FARSI.

THAT'S SINCE THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTION, THAT'S THE LAW OF IRAN.

SO THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE WATCHING PLAY OUT.

IF IT'S A SITUATION WHICH IS IN THIS CASE ESSENTIAL I HAD A PRIVATE MURDER, IT'S BETWEEN FAMILIES, IT DOESN'T AFFECT THE LARGER POPULATION, YOU CAN HAVE A NEGOTIATION, WHICH IS WHAT YOU SEE IN THE FILM WHERE INSTEAD OF THIS WOMAN BEING EXECUTED, IF SHE CAN MANAGE TO RAISE THE BLOOD MONEY THAT THE VICTIM'S FAMILY DEMANDS, SHE HAS A WAY OUT.

SHE WILL NOT END UP HANGED.

>> AT THE TIME --I'M GOING TO READ THIS FIGURE.

IT SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF MONEY.

THE VICTIM'S FAMILY, THE HUSBAND'S FAMILY DEMANDS 1.

5 BILLION TOMAN, THE PERSIAN CURRENCY.

AT THE TIME OF THE FILM, THAT WAS $36,000.

IT MAY NOT SOUND A LOT FOR MIDDLE CLASS, UPPER CLASS -- >> IT'S A LOT THERE.

>> THERE, IT'S A LOT PARTICULARLY WITH INFLATION, THE CURRENCY COLLAPSE.

SHE HAD NO WAY OF RAISING IT.

THE OTHER THING IS, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS REALLY REMARKABLE, IT'S NOT LIKE YOU WERE TRYING TO SYMPATHIZE NECESSARILY WITH HER.

SHE REFUSED TO BE A SYMPATHETIC CHARACTER.

SHE DIDN'T EVER APOLOGIZE FOR HAVING KILLED HIM.

IN FACT, SHE SAID SOMETHING THIS IS ALSO PRETTY BALLSY OF HER.

THE FIVE MONTHS SHE SAID BETWEEN COMMITTING THE CRIME AND GETTING CAUGHT, SHE FELT WAS 50 YEARS OF FUN AFTER THAT TERRIBLE MARRIAGE SHE HAD.

>> RIGHT.

>> WAS IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU PROFILIN A WOMAN WITH CHILDREN WHO REFUSED TO APOLOGIZE?

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I ACTUALLY THOUGHT, THIS IS A FASCINATING HUMAN BEING.

SHE BREAKS SO MANY STEREOTYPES THE WEST HAS OF WOMEN IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND SHE REFUSES TO BE THE WOE IS ME VICTIM.

IT ATTRACTED ME TO HER STORY.

I KNEW IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT IN TERMS OF THE CT THAT THEY WANT TO SYMPATHIZE WITH SOMEONE.

THE CHALLENGE THAT SHE IS SO NOT SYMPATHETIC AND SHE ACTUALLY BREAKS THE STEREOTYPES YOU MIGHT HAVE WAS APPEALING TO ME.

SHE'S SITTING THERE SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT?

HE KILLED US A THOUSAND TIMES.

I ONLY KILLED HIM ONCE.

I HAVE NO REGRET.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

I WAS LIKE, I HAVE FOUND A CHARACTER THAT IS REMARKABLE.

PEOPLE SHOULD SEE THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN IN IRAN.

SHE CAN BE THIS TOUGH.

>> EQUALLY ON THE OTHER SIDE, YOU FOUND AN INCREDIBLE COUNTERPOINT.

THE MOTHER OF HER HUSBAND, HER MOTHER-IN-LAW, WAS EQUALLY STUBBORN AND EQUALLY UPSET.

SHE WANTED TO EXECUTE.

SHE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT BLOOD MONEY.

SHE JUST WANTED HER TO DIE.

AN EYE FOR AN EYE.

THE MEN IN HER FAMILY WERE TRYING TO HAGGLE OVER THE BLOOD MONEY AND TRYING TO DECIDE HOW MUCH WAS ENOUGH, HOW MUCH THEY WERE GOING TO PAY.

THE WHOLE CAST OF CHARACTERS INVOLVED, THE MIDDLE PEOPLE, THE ANTI-DEATH PENALTY ACTIVISTS, THE LAWYER AND OTHERS, THEY WERE WOMEN.

I FOUND THAT DIE NAME YNAMIC INTERESTING.

>> SAME.

ONCE WE STARTED FILMING AND I REALIZED THE PEOPLE STEPPING UP TO HELP HER ARE BASICALLY THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.

SHE'S A MIDDLE-AGED WOMAN.

THE PRO BONO LAWYER, SAME THING.

I WAS LIKE, THIS IS INCREDIBLE.

WE HAVE A SYSTEM THAT IS REALLY SET UP TO NOT HELP A WOMAN, TO NOT GIVE HER AUTONOMY.

YET, WHAT HAPPENS, IN THIS CASE, IS WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OF SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT HOLDS YOU, OTHER PEOPLE SHOW UP.

WOMEN COME TO THE FOREFRONT OF THIS AND HELP HER.

WHICH I ALSO FOUND REMARKABLE.

I WASN'T EXPECTING THAT.

>> THEN I WOULD SAY THE MOST SYMPATHETIC CHARACTER WAS THE SON.

HE WAS --I THOUGHT SO.

HE WAS SIX YEARS OLD WHEN THIS MURDER HAPPENED.

HE WASN'T FULLY COMPLICIT.

IT WAS THE MOTHER AND THE TWO DAUGHTERS WHO WERE OLDER.

HE GREW UP FIRST REDESCENDING HIS MOTHER, HAVING TO LIVE WITHOUT HER FOR 14 YEARS THAT SHE SPENT IN JAIL PAYING FOR THIS CRIME.

>> HE BECAME -- >> HE BECAME THE BIGGEST DEFENDER.

IT WAS REALLY TRAGIC.

I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP OF HIM.

>> THAT HAS JUST ABOUT EVERY HUMAN EMOTION IN IT, EVERY FAMILY DYNAMIC YOU CAN IMAGINE.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

HE IS THE BOY, THE SON.

HE WAS SITTING OPPOSITE HIS UNCLE AND HIS GRANDMOTHER.

>> THAT'S HIS COUSIN.

>> SORRY, HIS COUSIN AND HIS GRANDMOTHER.

HE WAS BEGGING FOR HER LIFE.

AND TO TRY TO PAY LESS THAN THEY WANTED BAUSHGS ED BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T AFFORD IT.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF HIM.

>> I THOUGHT HE WAS A VERY SYMPATHETIC CHARACTER.

IT WAS IMPRESSIVE CONSIDERING WHAT HE HAS BEEN THROUGH THAT HE IS REALLY KEPT IT TOGETHER AND DOING WELL.

I THINK HE IS INCREDIBLE.

I DID FIND THAT HIS POSITION --HE MENTIONED IT A FEW TIMES WHERE HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, IF THEY WERE ASKING TO EXECUTE MY MOTHER, IF THEY WERE SAYING, WE'RE GOING TO HANG HER, HONESTLY, I WOULD SAY THAT'S HONORABLE.

I RESPECT THAT.

WHAT THEY SEE IS THEY JUST SEE MY DEAD FATHER AS A PILE OF CASH.

WHAT THEY ARE DOING, WHAT THEY WANT IS A LOT WORSE THAN ANYTHING MY MOM DID.

I FOUND THAT POSITION TO BE REALLY INTERESTING, BECAUSE CULTURALLY, HONOR IS IN A WAY MORE IMPORTANT.

THEY ARE NOT BEING HONORABLE AS HE IS EXPLAINING.

THE CASH GRAB WAS INTERESTING, BECAUSE IT REALLY POINTED TO WHERE THE ECONOMY IS CURRENTLY IN IRAN.

FRANKLY, I THINK PEOPLE ARE SO DESPERATE FOR MONEY THAT THIS IS PROBABLY HAPPENING MORE THAN IT WOULD BE IF THE ECONOMY WAS DOING WELL.

>> IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING POINT.

I WAS GOING TO ASK, HOW TYPICAL IS THIS OF LAW AND JUSTICE IN TODAY'S IRAN?

>> THERE ARE NOT --STATISTICS ARE NOT SOMETHING PEOPLE CONCENTRATE ON IN IRAN.

I DON'T KNOW HOW OFTEN IT IS.

I KNOW FROM THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS THAT MURDERS OF - - WHERE THE WIFE MURDERS THE HUSBAND HAS GONE UP OVER THE YEARS.

WHAT I DO KNOW IS BECAUSE OF THE FAILING ECONOMY, YOU HAVE A LOT MORE PEOPLE DEMANDING BLOOD MONEY.

IN A WAY, IT'S A SILVER LINING.

IF PEOPLE WERE DOING WELL AND THE OIL MONEY WAS GETTING INTO EVERYONE'S HANDS, ACTUALLY THERE WOULD BE MORE EXXECUTIONS.

YOU HURT ME.

YOU WILL HURT YOU BACK.

>> HOW DID YOU GET --YOU HAD A CO-DIRECTOR INSIDE IRAN --CAMERAS INTO THE HOMES AND INTO THE COURT PROCESS?

>> I MEAN, WHENEVER I MADE FILMS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, WHETHER IRAN, AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN, ONE OF THE BEAUTIES OF WORKING IN THESE REGIONS IS THE ACCESS IS PRETTY MUCH ALWAYS KIND OF NEGOTIABLE.

AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU ARE THERE FOR A WHILE, YOU KIND OF BECOME PART OF THE GROUP BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, IT'S A MORE COMMUNAL CULTURE.

YOU BECOME ACCEPTED.

THEY LET YOU IN.

THEN AT SOME POINT, THEY ARE OFFERING YOU TEA OR IGNORING YOU.

THERE'S THAT.

I ALSO THINK IN THIS CASE FOR HER, SHE PROBABLY SURMISED THAT IF WE DO SHINE A LIGHT ON HER AND SHE GETS VISIBILITY, THE CHANCES OF HER NOT BEING EXECUTED ARE HIGHER BECAUSE FOR ONE THING, THE ANTI-EXECUTION ACTIVISTS WILL NOT WANT TO FAIL.

SO I THINK THAT WAS DEFINITELY A CALCULATION.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO DO A SPOILER ALERT.

I WANT PEOPLE TO WONDER HOW IT WILL END.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THAT'S THE POINT.

I WANT TO ASK THIS.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE A JUDGMENT ON THE BARBARIC IRANIAN JUSTICE SYSTEM OR WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY.

I FOUND IT INTERESTING THAT THE WALL STREET JOURNAL REVIEW OF ALL PAPERS MADE A POINT OF NOTING THAT THE SYSTEM WAS NOT SO DIFFERENT THAN SYSTEMS IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

>> CORRECT.

>> 52% OF AMERICANS FAVOR THE DEATH PENALTY ACCORDING TO THE GALLOP POLL IN OCTOBER LAST YEAR.

HERE IS THE QUOTE.

DID THAT EVER PLAY INTO YOUR MIND WHEN YOU WERE TELLING THIS STORY?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK OF SYSTEMS AS BARBARIC OR NOT.

I THINK OF SYSTEMS AS, THERE'S A SYSTEM AND PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO GET THEIR NEEDS MET IN IT.

THERE'S ALWAYS A COMPLEXITY.

IN THIS CASE, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS, UNLIKE IN THE WEST, THERE'S A WAY OUT.

IF YOU GET AN EXECUTION SENTENCE IN THE WEST, THERE'S NO WAY OUT OF IT.

HERE, BECAUSE IT IS A PRIVATE CRIME, IT'S BETWEEN TWO FAMILIES, IT'S NOT LIKE SOMEONE WAS A DRUG DEALER WHO WAS CREATING MISSERRY FOR ALL OF SOCIETY, THAT YOU CANNOT NEGOTIATE YOUR WAY OUT OF AN EXECUTION.

OR IF YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT FINDS POLITICALLY OFFENSIVE, YOU CAN'T BUY YOUR WAY OUT OF THAT.

BECAUSE THIS DOESN'T REALLY HARM THE PUBLIC IN ANY WAY, THERE'S A WAY OUT OF IT.

YOU CAN NEGOTIATE YOUR WAY OUT OF IT.

THE NEGOTIATIONS ARE COMPLEX.

FRANKLY, IT'S IN A WAY --THERE'S A HUMANE ANSWER.

I DON'T REALLY THINK OF IT AS BARBARIC.

I THINK THE DESIRE TO HAVE REVENGE IN THE FORM OF ANTICIPATE EYE FOR AN EYE IS HUMAN INSTIPTH.

>> THAT'S QUITE PROVOCATIVE AND AN ABSORBING FILM.

BECAUSE OF ALL WE HAVE DISCUSSED ABOUT IT.

CONGRATULATIONS.

AN EYE FOR AN EYE.

THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

IT WAS A PLEASURE.

> >> NOW TO AN EVOCATIVE MEMOIR THAT LOOKS AT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE RACE AND POLICING IN THE UNITED STATES, SEEN THROUGH THE EYES OF A CHILD.

IN THE BLACK SHIELD, WILL BETTER COOPER RECOUNTS HIS OWN LIFE GROWING UP AS THE SON OF TWO BLACK COPS IN CLEVELAND.

HE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY HE FEELS CONFLICTED ABOUT THE PROFESSION WHICH GAVE HIS FAMILY ITS LIVE LIVEHOOD BUT DENIED THE SAME RIGHTS AND FREE DON'TS TO COUNTLESS OTHERS.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> IT'S MY PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT POLICING AS REALLY THE FAMILY BUSINESS.

TWO OF YOUR GREAT UNGLESS, YOUR MOM, YOUR DAD, YOUR SISTER, THE FAMILY TREE.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT, IF YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP?

>> FOR ME AND MY FAMILY, THE POLICING WAS ALWAYS SEEN AS SORT OF A STEP TO GET INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS.

I THINK MY PARENTS REALLY ALWAYS WERE ENCOURAGING ME TO TAKE A DIFFERENT ROUTE OR PATH.

FOR ME, I NEVER REALLY CONSIDERED IT.

IT WAS ALWAYS SORT OF, WE DID THAT SO YOU CAN GO ON AND DO SOMETHING ELSE.

>> IT WAS A MEANS TO AN END?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WERE THEY PROUD OF THEIR WORK?

DID THEY CONVEY THAT TO YOU?

DID THEY WANT YOU TO BE PROUD OF THEM?

>> I THINK THERE WAS A SENSE OF PRIDE OF SURVIVING IN AMERICA.

OF SORT OF COMING -- MY FAMILY ORIGINALLY ON BOTH SIDES COMES FROM THE SOUTH ING THE GREAT MIGRATION.

THEY COME TO THE NORTH IN CLEVELAND AND LIVE IN A SEGREGATED PART OF TOWN DURING THE JIM CROW AREA.

I THINK THERE WAS A GREAT SENSE OF PRIDE OF SURVIVING AND ATTAINING WHAT THEY SAW AS THE AMERICAN DREAM.

STABLE INCOME, PROTECTION, SAFETY AND MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR ME THAN PREVIOUS GENERATIONS HAD TO CARVE OUT A LIFE AND BE SITTING HERE TALKING WITH YOU TODAY.

>> YOU GOT TO GO TO GREAT SCHOOLS.

YOU GOT A GREAT EDUCATION.

BECAME A JOURNALIST.

IN RECENT YEARS, MANY PEOPLE KNOW YOUR WORK BECAUSE OF YOUR WORK COVERING RACE AND POLICING.

I WONDER WHEN YOU STARTED ON THAT BEAT, DID YOU REMEMBER THINKING ABOUT, I'M DOING THIS NOW?

THIS IS YOUR ACTUAL JOB NOW.

>> FOR ME, I STARTED OUT IN JOURNALISM AT "VICE" MAGAZINE.

IT WAS FOCUSED ON CULTURE AND COUNT COUNTERCULTURE.

THE BLACK LIVES MATTER DREW ME IN.

THERE WERE SO MANY HIGH PROFILE INCIDENTS AROUND CONVERSATIONS OF RACE WHEN I WAS COMING OF AGE IN MY EARLY 20s THAT I FELT LIKE I NEEDED TO MEET THE MOMENT AND TRY TO EXPLORE THIS TOPIC.

OBVIOUSLY, THIS IS A VERY DEEPLY PERSONAL TOPIC FOR ME.

I KIND OF HAVE PERSPECTIVES OF IT FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE EQUATION, COMING FROM A FAMILY OF BLACK POLICE OFFICERS.

>> I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT THAT.

WHEN THESE STORIES STARTED TO RISE, ONE OF THEM IN CLEVELAND.

TAMIR RICE WAS A 12-YEAR-OLD BOY PLAYING WITH A TOY GUN IN THE PARK.

WAS SHOT BY TWO CLEVELAND POLICE OFFICERS LITERALLY MINUTES AFTER THEY ARRIVED THERE.

DID YOU EVER TALK ABOUT STUFF LIKE THAT WITH YOUR FAMILY, BEFORE YOU DECIDED TO WRITE THE BOOK?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK MY PARENTS HAVE A BIT OF THIS DUALITY.

THAT'S HOW I DESCRIBE IT IN THE BOOK.

THAT WAS VERY PRESENT AT HOME.

WE HAD A VERY, VERY STRONG BLACK IDENTITY IN MY HOUSEHOLD.

WHEN THESE INCIDENTS WOULD COME UP, WHETHER RODNEY KING, TAMIR RICE, THESE WERE CONVERSATIONS WE HAD AT THE DINNER TABLE.

I THINK THERE WAS OFTEN A REAL DISGUST AND DISTRUST WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT, EVEN THOUGH LAW ENFORCEMENT WAS THE INSTITUTION THAT PAID FOR THE SAFETY AND HOME AND THINGS WE HAD.

I THINK WHEN I STARTED TO WORK ON THIS BOOK, IT WAS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE DISCONNECT OR BETWEEN THE WORK MY PARENTS DID AND THOSE CONVERSATIONS AROUND SOME OF THE HARMS AND NEGATIVE IMPACTS THAT CAN COME FROM THE SYSTEM.

>> YOUR BOOK IS INTERESTING.

IT'S SET AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF WHAT POLICING HAS BEEN AND WHAT IT DOES AND HOW PEOPLE GET INTO T. THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF FIERCE DETERMINATION BUT ALSO A LOT OF TRAUMA THAT LED TO THESE PEOPLE --LED THESE FOLKS TO THIS POINT.

WHY DON'T WE START WITH THE FIRST MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY, THE FIRST IN YOUR MOTHER'S FAMILY TO BECOME A POLICE OFFICER, YOUR GREAT UNCLE LLOYD.

>> I THINK UNCLE LLOYD IS ONE OF THOSE EXCEPTIONAL, LARGER THAN LIFE FIGURES.

HE WAS HANDSOME.

HE WAS INCREDIBLY STRONG.

HE HAD A KIND OF EXTREME PERSONALITY.

HE WAS REALLY GOOD WITH WOMEN.

HE LOVED TO GAMBLE.

I THINK HE WAS A BLACK MAN IN THE JIM CROW ERA WHO REALLY WANTED TO HAVE A SEMBLANCE OF FREEDOM IN HIS LIFE.

POLICING GAVE HIM THE ABILITY TO BE ABLE TO DO THE THINGS --LIVE THE LIFE HE WANTED TO LIVE WITHOUT HAVING TO FACE THE CONSEQUENCES THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM HAD TO FACE.

HE WAS A REALLY INTERESTING PERSON TO KIND OF DIVE INTO, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE WHEN I STARTED WORKING ON THIS BOOK, SO MANY OF THE THINGS THAT MY FAMILY HAD TOLD ME ABOUT HIM THAT I THOUGHT MAYBE WERE TALL TALES, I WAS ABLE TO VERIFY.

THEY RANGE FROM BEING INVOLVED IN A USE OF FORCE IN CLEVELAND TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE TO BEING AT SOIREES AND PARTIES WITH BEAUTIFUL WOMEN.

IT WAS A BROAD SPECTRUM.

LLOYD REALLY HELPS ME GET INTO THIS REALM OF TELLING A NARRATIVE THAT GAVE THE FULL COMPLEXITY OF INDIVIDUALS, PARTICULARLY BLACK POLICE OFFICERS INSIDE OF THIS INSTITUTION AND INSIDE OF AMERICA.

>> SOME PEOPLE HAVE THEORIES ABOUT WHY DIFFERENT PEOPLE GO INTO POLICING.

SOME PEOPLE GO INTO POLICING BECAUSE THEY REALLY WANT TO HELP PEOPLE.

SOME PEOPLE GO INTO POLICING BECAUSE THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS PROTECTORS.

THERE'S A FEELING SOME PEOPLE GO INTO POLICING BECAUSE THEY LIKE TO PUSH OTHER PEOPLE AROUND.

WHICH WAS YOUR UNCLE?

>> I THINK THAT THE INSTITUTION OF POLICING , I BELIEVE, REPRESENTED SOMETHING VERY FAMILIAR TO MY GREAT UNCLE.

MY GREAT UNCLE CAME FROM A HOUSEHOLD THAT HAD DOMESTIC ABUSE.

HE CAME FROM A COMMUNITY THAT HAD A STREET AND GANG CULTURE.

WHEN HE WAS A YOUNG PERSON, HE JOINED THE MILITARY.

AFTER THAT, HE WENT ON AND JOINED THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THERE'S A NARRATIVE THREAD OF VIOLENCE.

AND OF POWER AND DOMINATION THAT I THINK IS VERY AMERICAN AND SORT OF ALL AROUND.

SO, YES, I THINK THAT THERE'S AN ASPECT OF POLICING, PARTICULARLY AS HE WAS SOMEONE WHO REALLY IDENTIFIED WITH HIS PHYSICALITY AND HIS STRENGTH BEING ABLE TO CHANGE AND DETERMINE A SITUATION.

I IMAGINE THAT THE POWER THAT POLICING HAD DEFINITELY IS SOMETHING THAT APPEALED TO HIM OR MADE SENSE AND WAS FAMILIAR.

>> I TELL YOU, YOUR MOTHER IS ONE OF THE MOST FASCINATING PEOPLE IN THIS BOOK.

SHE GREW UP KIND OF RUNNING FROM THE POLICE AS A KID IN CLEVELAND, AS YOU DESCRIBE IT, WHEN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT WAS OVERWHELMINGLY WHITE, EVEN AS THE CITY WAS BECOMING INCREASINGLY DEVERSE.

SHE HAD ANOTHER LIVE BEFORE SHE BECAME A POLICE OFFICER.

PAINFUL PART OF THE BOOK.

SHE WAS IN AN ABUSIVE MARRIAGE.

SHE HAD THREE KIDS.

HE WAS BRUTALIZING HER.

HOW DID BEING A POLICE OFFICER KIND OF FIT INTO HER STORY?

>> I MEAN THINK --YOU TOUCHED ON IT.

SOME PEOPLE GO INTO IT WANTING TO BE A DOMINATOR.

OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE A PROTECTOR.

OR THEY WANT TO RIGHT THE WRONGS THAT MAYBE HAVE BEEN DONE TO THEM.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT MY MOM --WHAT DRIVE MY MOM DO IT.

FOR HER, POLICING, SEEMED LIKE A LIFELINE.

IT COULD GIVE HER FINANCIAL STABILITY TO GET AWAY ELECTRIC AN ABUSIVE MARRIAGE.

COMING FROM A CHILDHOOD OF ABUSE, POLICING COULD ALLOW HER THE OPPORTUNITY TO RIGHT SOME OF THE WRONGS DONE TO HER.

YOU ASKED EARLIER, IS THERE PRIDE AMONGST MY FAMILY FOR THE PROFESSION?

I THINK WITH MY MOM, THERE IS A SENSE OF PRIDE, BECAUSE OF THE INTENTION WITH WHICH SHE WENT INTO THE INSTITUTION WITH.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DO IN THE BOOK IS POINT OUT HOW HARD IT IS TO BE A BLACK COP AND HOW HARD IT CAN BE TO BE A BLACK FEMALE COP.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOUR MOM HAD TO PUT UP WITH JUST TO SURVIVE IN THAT JOB, I JUST THINK ARE HAIR CURLING.

RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

MY MOM'S EARLY EXPERIENCE ON THE JOB WAS SO RROWING.

SHE'S ONE OF THE FIRST WOMEN TO COME INTO THE CLEVELAND POLICE DEPARTMENT AFTER THEY SHUT DOWN THE WOMEN'S BUREAU, WHICH WAS A BUREAU SPECIFICALLY FOR WOMEN.

WHEN SHE SORT OF WENT THROUGH THE ACADEMY AND CAME INTO THE DEPARTMENT, NO ONE HAD ANY INTEREST IN SHOWING HER ANYTHING OR TRAINING HER AND HELPING HER GET ACCLIMATED TO THE JOB.

SOME OF HER FIRST INTERACTIONS WITH HER SUPERVISOR, THEY TOLD HER THAT WHAT SHE WAS REQUIRED TO DO WAS TO SWEEP UP AND MAKE COFFEE.

WHEN SHE FINALLY DID GET AN ASSIGNMENT, IT WAS TO STAND GUARD IN AN EMPTY LOT IN THE DEAD OF WINTER.

THE COLDEST WINTER IF CLEVELAND'S HISTORY.

INSIDE OF A BROKEN DOWN BUSTED OUT CAR WITH NO HEAT.

WHEN THEY FINALLY TOOK HER ON THE ROAD AND PUT HER IN WHAT'S CALLED THE ZONE CAR, THE POLICE CAR, WERE SUPPOSED TO TRAIN HER.

THE TWO WHITE OFFICERS OF WHO WERE HER SUPERIOR HAD HER IN THE BACK SEAT.

THEY PULLED UP TO A RESTAURANT TO HAVE LUNCH.

THEY LEFT HER LOCKED IN THE BACK SEAT WHILE THEY WENT TO GO HEAT.

>> JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW, THAT'S WHO YOU PUT PEOPLE YOU PICK UP.

WHICH IS WHY THEY CAN'T GET OUT.

THE BLACK SHIELD IS THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK.

IT'S ALSO THE NAME OF AN ORGANIZATION OF BLACK POLICE OFFICERS.

IT'S A CLUB.

>> IT STARTED OUT AS CALLED THE SHIELD CLUB.

BASICALLY, IT BEGAN IN THE 1940s.

SORT OF AFTER VERY INTENSE INCIDENT.

IT INVOLVED BLACK OFFICERS ACTUALLY TRYING TO DEFEND ANTI-SEGREGATION PROTESTERS.

OVER THE DECADES AND OVER THE YEARS, THE ORGANIZATION HAS REALLY EBBED AND FLOWED BETWEEN BEING ONE THAT HAS TRIED TO FIGHT FOR THE CONCERNS OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND ONE THAT HAS FOCUSED MORE ON THE PROFESSIONAL CONCERNS OF BLACK OFFICERS INSIDE THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

SOMETIMES THOSE TWO CAN BE CONFLICTING WITH EACH OTHER.

IN 2020, DURING THE DE-FUND THE POLICE ERA, IT WAS BACK UP IN THE CONVERSATION BECAUSE IT WAS ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS WHEN THE ORGANIZATION, WHICH HAD BECOME NOW KNOWN AS THE BLACK SHIELD, WAS ALIGNING ITSELF WITH THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND ACTIVISTS CALLING FOR CHANGE IN POLICING.

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE ESSENTIAL QUESTIONS IN THE BOOK.

WHETHER YOU ACTUALLY CAN CHANGE AN INSTITUTION FROM THE INSIDE.

INTERESTINGLY --THIS IS, THERE ARE A LOT OF PAIN POINTS IN THIS BOOK THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT IN A VERY SENSITIVE WAY.

AS YOU WERE LOOKING INTO YOUR DAD'S CAREER, YOU DISCOVERED HE HAD SHOT A BLACK MAN DURING A DRUG OPERATION IN 2001.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT EPISODE NOW?

DID YOU KNOW ABOUT IT AT THE TIME?

DID YOU EVEN KNOW?

>> NO.

I HAD NO IDEA.

THAT'S ONE OF THE KEY THINGS ABOUT THE BOOK IS TRYING TO UNCOVER AND UNDERSTAND AND SEE MY DAD FROM A DIFFERENT VANTAGE.

I WAS ONLY ABLE TO SORT OF LEARN ABOUT IT THROUGH USING TYPICAL REPORTING AND INVESTIGATIVE PRACTICES OF ASKING FOR MY DAD'S FILES AND RECORDS FROM THE CLEVELAND POLICE DEPARTMENT AND DIVING INTO THOSE.

AT THE TIME THAT I WAS DIVING INTO THE STORY, MY FATHER WAS ILL.

I HAD NO WAY TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT THIS INCIDENT AND HAD TO REALLY WRESTLE WITH A LOT OF THE ISSUES IN SOLITUDE AND MAKE UP SOME CONCLUSIONS MY SGLFL WHAT CONCLUSIONS HAVE YOU COME TO?

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE OF INDIVIDUALS INSIDE OF AN INSTITUTION LIKE POLICING, I THINK THAT INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I THINK THAT THERE IS A BENEFIT TO HAVING A MORE DIVERSE POLICE FORCE.

I THINK THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHAT A LOT OF THE ACTIVISTS ARE TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS A TRANSFORMATIVE CHANGE OF VALUES WHICH IS A REPRESENTATION OF AMERICA WE HAVEN'T REALLY FULFILLED, REFORS LIKE DIVERSITY ARE ALWAYS GOING TO FALL SHORT.

WE NEED TO HOLD ON TO BOTH IDEALS AT THE SAME TIME.

THE INTERSTITIAL CHANGES THAT CAN HAVE A KIND OF MARGINAL BENEFIT THAT CAN ALLOW US TO SURVIVE AND THE BIGGER AND BROADER GOAL TOWARDS FREEDOM WHICH IS AN INTERNAL STRUGGLE THAT NEVER STOPS.

>> YOU SAY IN THE BOOK THAT -- THOSE ARE SOME REALLY POWERFUL WORDS THERE.

WHAT IS THAT FEAR?

IS IT THE FEAR THAT THESE OFFICERS CARRY WITHIN THEM THEMSELVES?

IS IT THE FEAR THAT -- MAKING A GENERAL STATEMENT HERE - -THAT MOST BLACK PEOPLE CARRY WITHIN THEMSELVES OF BEING CRUSHED OR HARMED BY FORCES THAT ARE ALMOST ALWAYS GOING TO SEE YOU AS WRONG, EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT?

WHAT IS THAT FEAR?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S A FEAR THAT PEOPLE HAVE WITHIN THEMSELVES AND SOCIETY WHEN THEY SEE THESE FORCES COME DOWN ON PEOPLE AND THEY SEE THAT INJUSTICE, THEY WORRY AND STRESS ABOUT IT COMING BACK TO THEM.

IT'S SORT OF A TRICK BAG.

NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU ARMOR YOURSELF OR PROTECT YOURSELF, YOU CAN ALWAYS FALL SUSCEPTIBLE TO THAT POWER.

EVENTUALLY, IT CAN COME BACK ON YOU.

THAT FEAR CAN BE A REALLY DETERIORATING FORCE TO HOLD INSIDE YOURSELF CONSTANTLY.

I THINK MY BOOK IS TRYING TO URGE PEOPLE TO MOVE BEYOND THAT FEAR AND MAKE SOME CHOICES THAT ARE FOCUSED ON NOT ON THE FEAR BUT ON FREEDOM.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, YOU DID SOME OF THE HARDEST REPORTING THAT ANYBODY CAN DO, WHICH IS TO KIND OF LOOK AT YOUR OWN FAMILY, ESPECIALLY YOUR PARENTS, AND SEE THEM AS HUMANS IN THE WORLD IN ALL OF THEIR BEAUTY AND THEIR STRENGTH AND THEIR FLAWS.

I WONDER AT THE END OF THE JOURNEY, DID IT CHANGE YOUR MIND ABOUT THEM AND THE WORK THAT THEY DID?

>> YES.

I WENT THROUGH SO MANY EMOTIONAL HIGHS AND LOWS AS I STARTED TO UNCOVER AND UNDERSTAND MY FAMILY AND PARTICULARLY MY PARENTS.

THE ENTIRE JOURNEY THAT I WENT ON WAS REALLY ABOUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AND GET TO KNOW THEM TO GET CLOSER TO THEM.

MY HOPE WAS IF I COULD GET CLOSER TO THEM, IT WOULD HELP ME UNDERSTAND HOW I COULD MOVE FORWARD IN MY OWN LIFE AS I HAVE ENTERED INTO ADULTHOOD AND THE SPACES THAT THEY WERE BEFORE.

I THINK HAVING AND KNOWING THEM AS FULL INDIVIDUALS, AS FULL PEOPLE, HAS BEEN IMPORTANT FOR ME.

I HOPE THAT IT REALLY HELPS PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THEIR PAST, THEIR FAMILY'S PAST AND HOW THEY CAN MOVE FORWARD AS WELL.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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