- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- Outgoing Germantown mayor, Mike Palazzolo, tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

We are joined tonight by Germantown mayor, Mike Palazzolo, thanks for being here again.

- Glad to be here.

- Along with Abigail Warren, reporter with The Daily Memphian.

You chose not to run again, 3 terms, 12 years.

You've been on, so we're counting, I think it must be close to 10 times, so we appreciate that very much.

As you look to whoever is elected to be the next mayor of Germantown, what's your advice?

- Well, quite simply, just make sure that you know that you've got a great team around you.

Our city staff, as I put them up against any other administrative team around, and just realize you've got 400 plus employees that can help deliver great service to our residents in Germantown and just be able to take that advice.

And I always like to tell people one of the best things I ever learned after being in office for a few years is listen, learn, and lead.

That's critically important for any leader, especially in the beginning of their career.

And we've got two able candidates that will succeed me and hopefully they'll do very, very well.

- You look at your time in office and your successes that stand out to you are what?

- Well, first and foremost, I mean, there are a lot of things that we've accomplished in the 22 total years that I've been in office.

- You were on the board- - Correct.

- Before that, on the board of alderman.

- Correct, 10 years as an alderman, also vice mayor, and then 12 years as mayor.

So many of the things we've accomplished have been around delivering great quality service, premium service to our residents.

There's certain things that I take some pride in, and they're usually things that have brought a new level of service to our residents.

We worked really hard in getting representation on the MLG&W board, and that was probably about a five-year process.

And it took a matter of all the suburban mayors coming together and acting as one voice to get representation.

We eventually got two somewhat ex officio members of the MLG&W board that were non-voting members, but they represented us.

And then through the state legislature through the General Assembly, we were able to get those two people that were giving voting rights.

And so now our folks in our cities, in the suburbs that are residents, they're also rate payers, they have representation on that board.

So that's one thing.

And of course, starting our own school district and- - Yeah, we'll come back to that.

- Bringing some finality to the 3Gs that are in our city, our legacy schools.

Those are things that I take a certain amount of pride in.

- One more from me, just kind of big picture and Abigail has more specific ones as well.

But just, when you look back at 12 years, if you want to do the full 20-plus years, regrets?

- Well, I tell you what, at times, you know, when I just mentioned about listen, learn, lead early on, I got- [Eric laughing] - What's the opposite of that?

- I got those out of order and oftentimes I would tell people the way the city is going to do it and oftentimes that's not the best delivery point.

The best delivery point is being able to understand exactly what our residents' needs are and then try to deliver a service or a program or a policy that fits those, but then be able to explain why it may not meet each and every facet of the delivery of that service.

And that's difficult at times.

So those are some of the things that I regret as far as being a personal leader.

Many of the programs that we brought forward will stand the test of time and they're already being put in place right now and people will be using those for many years to come.

- Let me bring in Abigail.

- Is there anything that you look at that maybe you didn't get to do, you haven't touched or things that are halfway done that you're somewhat sad you won't be able to see through?

- Sure.

Well, you know, there's so many things.

We have completely revamped our park system and I would give some credit to Mary Anne Gibson who's the alderman liaison to Parks & Recreation Commission.

But we've completely, I mean, completely from signage to new playground equipment to extending our greenway.

One of the things I do have a little bit, not a regret, but I would've loved to have finished our greenway.

It's our circular path around our city.

We're about 15 and a half miles into that.

We're almost all complete on the north and on the east side, but on the south and the west, which are the most challenging portions, there's still some room to grow there.

- The relationship of all the suburbs to Memphis.

And I think one of the first places I met you was with Region Smart, which a regional group of mayors.

And there was at a time when there was a, I think it was the Greenprint and connecting and that sort of, that sense that, I remember it was a mayor from one of the suburbs who said, "You know, we have great greenways, "but you can only ride back and forth so many times.

We need to connect all these things."

And Germantown has done that.

A lot of the suburbs have done that.

Metaphorically, are there other places where Germantown needs to connect more with Memphis?

- Sure.

Well, and that's a great analogy.

I'm a true believer in regionalism.

You don't have to give up your sovereignty as a city to be able to be part of a regional framework and a regional fabric.

And I think the suburbs are moving more in that realm.

We created three or four years ago the Suburban Mayor's Council.

I've chaired that.

David Parsons, the mayor of Bartlett will chair that moving forward.

And we have really spoken more as one voice and we've also had better communications with Memphis mayors and Shelby County mayors.

I'm very excited about Mayor Lowery and his One Shelby initiative.

I was very fortunate to be able to be chosen to serve on the transition committee that's completed its work.

I think a final report comes out sometime next week.

And so I think that that message of One Shelby and creating that big Shelby again that we knew for so many, couple of generations ago where we have more, I guess, respect and more acknowledgement from the General Assembly and the rest of the state that Shelby County is a force to be reckoned with economically, healthcare-wise, culture, history, music, all those different things.

- You do hear, you know, I've lived here now 31 years in Memphis.

You'll hear people from the suburbs, "Well, "you know, we don't go into Memphis.

"We don't go downtown.

We don't..." That's other.

That's very other.

And that maybe really spiked during the big crime spike in COVID and post-COVID.

You've worked within Memphis, you know, as you were a part-time mayor, yeah.

That sense of dependency on one another, right?

Not just that you don't have the Grizzlies or you don't have the airport or you don't have a lot of the things you have in Memphis just if it's Germantown only, but vice versa.

Memphis, I've heard people say, "Memphis also needs suburbs because that's the kind of life some people want."

Is that fair?

- Yeah.

And we're about a net neutral employer in our city.

So, you know, in the morning, a lot of taillights are moving in, going into Memphis.

I worked in midtown, downtown.

My wife works downtown.

And then we have major healthcare in our city.

Six of the ten largest regional clinics in the entire area are headquartered in Germantown.

So we do have employment coming in, but at the end of the day, you know, downtown Memphis is kind of the living room of the region and we have, you know, we have dens in the suburbs.

I mean, we do have a bigger house and, you know, I enjoy all the amenities that Memphis offers me and the rest of the region.

And hopefully people come and visit me.

If you want your Apple computer worked on or your Apple phone, you've got to come to Germantown.

You want your Trader Joe's fix on?

You got to come to Germantown.

So those type things are pretty nice as well, so.

- Right.

Back to Abigail.

- Let's talk about the decision to step down.

Can you talk about what went into that?

And how much did, there was a referendum about making the position full-time, residents voted against it.

How much did that go into the decision as to?

- Yeah, well, you know, of course the referendum, which is a good thing.

I mean, right now in this election cycle, you've got three questions from the state level, and I guess Memphians have three questions that they'll have to answer.

So our residents spoke pretty loud and clearly on what they wanted governing to look like in our city.

So that had a little bit, but you know, I don't want to sound stoic or anything, but as you get a little older, you start to value your time differently.

I'm early 60s and I've got a long way to go, but family-wise, and we have family around the country and locally and, you know, and I just pretty much put a different set of values on my time.

And plus that 30 years is a good long time.

We have some good leaders.

Leadership Germantown's produced 500-plus leaders over its 30 years in operation.

And so it's time for a change and I think the city's in a good position.

You know, I can't wait to work with.

I will be glad to transition smoothly to the next administration so that they will have more of an easier path forward.

- And what does transition look like?

- Well, you know, traditionally when I, when Mayor Goldsworthy, who retired after five terms, twenty years, one of my mentors, it's really a, you know, some deep conversations and, you know, a Q&A.

She quite famously gave me a manual, which I still keep to this day.

And it's the nicest thing because we have mutual respect for each other, but, you know, she gave me... I mentioned before we went on the air, one of the neat things about being a local mayor is I've married or officiated 240 or so weddings.

So she gave me her little, like it'd be a book for a parson, but I'm a justice of the peace, I guess.

And so that was a little bit more formal and informal.

And so that transition can be mainly about, you know, what questions do you have of the current mayor?

And the administration will be ready to make that transition as well.

- And we should mention that Edgar Babian and Tony Salvaggio are the two candidates for mayor- - Yeah.

And that's a good- - This election cycle.

- Yes, and that's a good reminder before we go back to Mike Palazzolo here.

Early voting is underway.

It runs through October 29th and election day is November 3rd.

A lot of attention on the governor's race and the US House races in the Memphis and Shelby County area, the three of them now.

But there are local elections in Germantown and many of the suburbs.

You can get all of that information at our voter guide at The Daily Memphian or you can go to Ready, Set, Vote on The Daily Memphian and that'll kind of tell you when you can vote, where to vote, what you need to do.

You can get sample ballots there or links to them as well as at shelbyvote.com, the Shelby County Election Commission.

So again, moving towards early voting through the 29th and then election day, November 3rd.

So thank you for that reminder, Abigail.

You mentioned, I think early, that the schools.

- Sure.

- So when forced consolidation of then Shelby County Schools and a little history lesson for people who, you know, aren't, weren't covering or weren't living here or weren't paying attention, that there were two school districts.

There was the Memphis City School District and then there was the suburban school districts from Millington, Germantown, Collierville all in one district.

The forced consolidation and then the fight at the legislature and the deconsolidation, it didn't go back to status quo.

It created these separate districts, including one in Germantown.

You were an alderman during that and then mayor once the separate district had been set up.

Looking back on it, what might have Germantown done differently?

- Well, you know, and we were all part of it then and you were covering it as well.

- Covering it all.

Yes.

- Yeah.

And I went to countless meetings as an alderman.

Mayor Goldsworthy retired as the transition occurred and we opened the doors.

That was just very, very sticky.

And it was difficult to try to put your finger on how things would have been done differently.

I think we probably would have looked at the compromise a little bit differently.

You know, Germantown had to make some decisions so that its peer communities, the other suburbs could move forward.

And so those legacy schools, Germantown Elementary, Middle and High School were kind of left off the table for us.

It took me about three and a half years of pretty significant work in the General Assembly to have legislation written for local LEAs, a Local Education Agency, and a great compromise occurred.

And we've got, I think, five and a half years left until that is finally settled in the summer of 2032.

But I can't really put my finger on one thing that we would have done differently.

I am very proud of our community for wanting to have our own destiny in our own hands as far as education goes.

I was posed a question.

I spoke at a real estate agency recently and they asked me, you know, you know, it's hard for, there's a barrier to entry in our suburb because housing prices are so high and it's difficult for young families to buy their first or second house.

And I said that might be true.

However, our young families don't have to settle for public education.

They come to public education.

So a family of 3 doesn't have to write a $45,000 annual check for private school tuition.

They can put that into their house for 13 years, K through 12.

And so in essence, you can have a little bit better or affordable house in Germantown.

And that affordability question, that's not the same thing that's in an urban core.

And so I'm very respectful of that.

But public education has made our communities in Germantown and the other suburbs, communities that people want to move to.

- We had Jason Manuel, the superintendent of Germantown Schools along with the superintendents from Collierville and Lakeland on the show a couple months ago around the start of school.

People can go to wkno.org, Daily Memphian or YouTube and get that.

And it was a really interesting conversation about, you know, there was a sense, maybe this was media creation, maybe who knows what, when, okay, once all the deconsolidation happened and the suburban schools are set up, it's all rainbows and roses, right?

And it was a really great conversation, whatever it is now, 12-plus years later about the challenge.

It's just hard to run a school.

You feel like you never have enough money and you've got all these state mandates.

You know, Memphis can, right or wrong, can point to the legislature picks on us, Nashville picks on us, they do all these things in Memphis.

You know, they were talking about some 30-something different laws that were passed that impacted their suburban school districts, from tiny things to very, very big things.

- Sure.

- Give me your perspective both for schools or maybe for Germantown as a whole where you've been mayor.

The state does dictate a lot, not just to Memphis, right?

- Well, I'm a former educator.

I spent three years in the '80s teaching in the Memphis City schools.

Yes, well, we were very proud and happy to make that investment in having that shiny new object, our own the school district.

There's an expense that goes along with it.

And so we were fully capable and fully realized that we were going to have to move into making that investment.

But over time, we do have things that sometimes they're unfunded mandates that occur from the state level.

Vouchers would be one thing that gives us competitive disadvantage with the private schools.

You know, if we want to have extraordinary programs in our schools, if we wanted to have an aerospace or a pilot program, the private schools can hire a retired pilot and they don't have to go through accreditation and get their teaching license.

They already are a subject matter expert in landing and flying a plane, but they are not an expert on teaching those skills.

Well, in a public school setting, they would have to go through licensure and accreditation.

So those are barriers to some programs that we would love to be able to do.

So the competitiveness between those are not the same and that is driven by the state.

There's so many other things, you know, we have a very good special education program in Germantown and a lot of families come to our city and our district to be able to be in that program.

But the state, I mean, it's ridiculous.

It's like a $900,000-a-year program and the state funds maybe $75,000 of that.

School district has to do everything else and we're man- - But mandates that you do it.

- And it's the unfunded mandate.

It's not 100% unfunded, but close to it.

So, and we have to do that by law and we want to do it, but we would've liked a little bit more help.

- Yeah.

Abigail.

- Kind of a, something that I know you and the school district have talked about is the 15 cents, that tax levy that residents voted for.

I know that the school district thought that it should be a cash contribution.

The city has said that in-kind contributions like lawn maintenance and SROs contribute towards that.

I know there was a conversation with the state that the city had to kind of see, get state guidance on that.

Can you speak to where those conversations are?

- Yeah, over the summer, we met with the comptroller, we met with the Tennessee School Board leadership and the Tennessee Department of Education leadership, and Mark White, who is the chairman of the education committee and our district representative in the General Assembly.

There have been certain information go back and forth.

I don't think that issue is "settled".

We have found out some different things that maintenance of effort, things like debt service and capital contributions and get, or in-kind services can count toward the spend.

At the end of the day, you know, we've got to be able to appropriately fund our school district to the level that our residents and our parents also want.

And you know, we inherited a lot of buildings that had deferred maintenance.

A lot of the other districts did as well.

And so much of that cost on capital, that's difficult for a community even with resources like Germantown.

So being able to make sure all the priorities align from public safety to parks to public education, infrastructure, those things are very difficult.

Those are some of the headwinds that the next mayor of Germantown will have to face.

- I think we, you know, data centers is a huge topic right now locally, you know, in Memphis and Southaven locally across the river, but also nationally.

It's a massive issue.

We just brought, you know, kind of bipartisan, rural, city, Republican, Democrat, a lot of oppositions to data centers.

And I think Abigail was telling me yesterday that Germantown couldn't do a data center.

From a zoning point of view, also not a lot of land, commercial land where you could do that sort of thing.

So you are a, you know, you've been in public service, you've run a city.

When you look at the fights, whether you want to talk about Memphis or Southaven or you want to just talk nationally, what, if you were faced with that as a mayor, how would you handle that process of figuring out, do we, do we not want a data center and what goes along with that?

- Sure, well, we won the Malcolm Baldrige Award, so we know all about process in Germantown.

We've got a dozen or so Lean Six Sigma Black Belts.

We would look at it closely.

With data centers, I would kind of equate that to the fights of 20-plus years ago, 40 years ago with cell towers.

And so, you know, the "Not in my backyard, "not in my side yard, not in my front yard, not by my school, not by my park," was what we heard.

And when we wanted to bring more public safety to our community with cell towers, because today cell towers do things like monitor pacemakers, obviously 911 calls, who has a landline anymore?

So I would say that there's similarities and I think one of the things that, and I've been to two conferences this year, the Governor's Economic Development Conference and then MTAS, the Municipal Technical Advisory Service.

They train all of us cities.

They've had already begun to come up with zoning.

So oftentimes it's all about land use, zoning, and ordinance.

You know, they're data centers, banks have them, healthcare facilities have them.

Now, the hyperscaled models, you know, that are large and you know, it's all about landscaping and how you put them somewhere and those type things.

It's a great opportunity for this region.

I think Mayor Young on, maybe it was on Jeff Calkins' podcast, mentioned that there was $52 million in accrued taxes to Shelby County and Memphis.

And that equated to something like 12,000, $300,000 homes, the tax revenue that they would've produced.

So there's a huge opportunity there, but you're right.

We have 260 acres left in Germantown.

I don't foresee that.

- Yeah, it's not happening.

And that's why I was curious for you because- - But Collierville and Bartlett and Millington and Arlington, they have commercial and manufacture zoning.

Germantown, we have none of that in our city.

I don't think Lakeland does either.

And so our city mothers and fathers looked at not data centers, but 40-plus years ago, they said that we didn't want manufacturing.

We didn't want light industry, just office, healthcare, retail.

- Yeah.

Abigail, about four minutes left.

- Talk about maybe the next five years in Germantown, obviously with the new mayor.

What are the biggest challenges you think that they're going to have?

You talked about school funding was one of them a few minutes ago, but what are the challenges you see that they're going to have to face?

- Well, we only have four minutes, but, so the state legislature has been looking at this for a number of years and that would be imposing property tax caps.

Right now, there's a referendum question about in the, not ever having a property, or a property tax, from the state, but the legislature has been looking at capping local municipalities on how much they can raise taxes.

And so whether that's the 2%, 4%, 5% cap, or stay with some form of cost of living, COLA or inflationary, the real challenge with that is, is that like fire pumpers and ladder trucks are costing a million six now.

And you know, you could easily, you know, and then some of the property tax legislation is required a referendum.

So you would be asking your people, you know, do you want to impose a property tax increase to go buy a fire truck?

Well, in the old days, they just relied on the mayor and the alderman and city administrator and administration to make those recommendations and, you know, you do your due diligence and see the cost benefit analysis and all those things.

So that could really tie the hands of local legislatures, which are boards of mayor and alderman in this state.

It could be a really, really heavy headwind for the next administration.

We have been fighting that for a number of years.

Also, the state has not shared sales tax with us for 25 years.

It's about $25 million for Germantown.

For the city of Memphis, I think their annual impact is like 15 million.

So you do the math on that, that's a pretty substantial amount of money.

When we would go to the legislature and talk to our representatives and we've talked to the people running for governor, you know, those are things that need to come back to the local municipalities that actually produce that money.

So about two ambulances a year or, you know, 10 police cruisers, about what we lose each year from the state.

So protecting revenue and guarding against property tax caps are going to be two significant things.

- How, again, 20 years, you were 20 years alderman and then, you know, then mayor, you were on employment position, zoning- - Planning commission.

- Planning commission before that.

What's changed in politics?

- Well, when I started, there was no social media.

- Yeah.

- I think MySpace was like starting to die.

And so I think we talked earlier about how you go door to door, you know, it's easier in a smaller community than it would be for the county or for city of Memphis.

People got their news and they exchanged their news at church or at the grocery store or they confronted you at a ball game or something.

Social media has just changed that a lot.

Not to the point where it's a decision on why I'm retiring, by no means, I have found that social media is not a good barometer of way the community really feels.

But anyway, that has been a big difference.

- And with social media, is it misinformation?

Is it the way in which- - Part of that.

Yeah.

Part of that.

And the frustration is with leaders, oftentimes, you know, you will proverbially, you know, answer those questions or put those fires out and you'll ask the people, "Come in, let's talk about it."

They won't accept an appointment to meet with you.

They won't accept, you know, a phone call to talk about it.

They just want to be able to express themselves a certain way.

And that's frustrating.

You know, for the longest time in my tenure, we had a monthly community conversations where I invited 12 or 15 residents in for a boxed lunch once a month.

And, you know, it just, and it was free for all.

I mean, just conversation.

- Yeah.

- We don't have an agenda.

And I'd always make a point to invite three or four people that were pretty vocal on social media.

And then other people that just would randomly ask for, you know, something from my office or, and the people that were mainly social media anchored were less inclined to come to that format.

Yeah.

It was just- - Yeah.

Yeah.

- And when they did, they rarely spoke loudly, but behind the keyboard they did.

So those, that would be the major change.

- There's some truth to that in local news as well.

- I understand completely.

[Eric laughing] I read the comments in The Daily Memphian, so.

- Well, thank you.

And I will thank you.

You've always been very willing to come on, talk about issues difficult and so on.

So we really appreciate that over your many years and good luck in your future endeavors.

- Well, thank you.

I know when I first was on the show, my mother said, "I can't believe that really smart young man asked you to be on that show."

So anyway, I wanted to pass that compliment.

- Yeah.

Thank you to your mom.

Thank you, and apologies to your mom because we did take your face out of the intro as you stepped out of office, but we appreciate that your family watches.

Thank you.

Thank you, Abigail.

That's all the time we have this week.

We'll see you again next week.

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