- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- Juvenile Court Judge Tarik Sugarmon, tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Juvenile Court Judge Tarik Sugarmon.

Thanks for being back.

- Thanks for having me again.

I appreciate it.

- Absolutely.

Along with Aarron Fleming, who covers public safety and criminal justice for us at The Daily Memphian.

We're coming up on two years in September, early September, it'll be two years that you were inaugurated, elected in August of 2022.

We'll start big picture and we'll talk about some specifics and all kinds of things going on, but I'm curious, two years into this, in terms of preventing crime, what you've learned, what works, what doesn't work, what you've changed in those two years.

And I ask the question in part because we often, and this may be a media thing or just a public perception thing, almost forget that by the time a young person is appearing in your court, crime or crimes are done, the notion of prevention is sort of a little bit, you know, removed, I think, in some ways.

Other people would say hard offenses, treating people, you know, there's a preventative nature to what the court can do.

But I'm curious, both in terms of first-time offenders and there's so much focus on repeat offenders.

What works?

- What works is programs that involve youth in pro-social activities, but we have to go even deeper because it's the families that we have to really influence in terms of keeping up with youth, making sure they're involved in pro-social programs, keeping up with education, making sure that we address the family's needs.

We as a community are responsible for the outcomes of our children, but we have to address the needs of the family.

One of the things I need to comment about though, in terms of prevention, courts are looked at in terms of being preventative of crimes.

That's not necessarily the case.

We adjudicate cases.

It's up to law enforcement to do the enforcement and prevention.

We do play a significant role in turning around a youth, and that's one of the things that the juvenile court systems were designed for.

Not to necessarily punish a youth, where we can, we have to restore and try to rehabilitate children.

- We'll get to the notion of adult transfers, of juveniles where, I think the DA's Office, I think in conjunction with you, will ask and be granted or not granted the transfer of youth, usually it involves a very violent crime.

- They ask, they petition - They ask.

Thank you.

- We make the adjudication.

- And you make the adjudication.

So we're gonna set those aside and come back to those.

For when you get back to this notion of repeat offenders, and we've got some data we'll get to eventually in this that came out for the first quarter on repeat offenders.

At what point do you, both legally and in your, you know, role as the judge say, "This child is... "We need to take further action.

We can't just return them back to the family."

I mean, what are those standards?

What goes into that?

Because the stories, and they may get exaggerated.

You may tell me of kids who, of young people who repeat offend, who get in, who are right back out, and they go and they break into another car or they break into... And we're maybe staying away from the most violent offenses.

What have you learned in the last two years about those young people who are repeat offending at low-level offenses that maybe are escalating?

- Well you mentioned removing a child from the family.

A lot of that happens on actually our civil side on dependency neglect petitions.

We have found by the data, and we are driven by the data in terms of our programming, in terms of our resources allocation.

We found that of youth that have been involved on dependency neglect petitions, those involved on our family side of the dockets, the crossover nationally is 45 to 70%.

And these are youth that are normally displaced youth, youth that have not had the resources, the families did not have the resources and opportunities at pro-social involvement.

And if we break that cycle and that trend, we can turn around a lot of these kids.

Now, 75% of our business is on the child welfare side, child support, custody, termination of parental rights, dependency neglect.

Only 25% is on the delinquency side.

And you would look at the headlines and think it's the opposite way.

In fact, coming into this office, a lot of the public's perception was that.

We're trying to educate the public and our community and our stakeholders, the fact that 75% of our business is on the child welfare side.

If we break that trend, we will not have the crossover.

We can do both at the same time.

We can address delinquencies, which is 25% of our business, but we can also break the trend of crossover by dealing with the family legal matters.

- And just before I go to Aarron, just a terminology for juveniles, delinquency is a charge.

Or define delinquency 'cause what that sounds like to many people is like, "Wait, are we talking about delinquent from school?"

And that's not what you mean.

- No, a delinquent act.

Which the charges model the adult criminal code.

So a delinquent act of vandalism is a vandalism in the generic sense on an adult docket, but it's a delinquent act.

And so then those charges are broken down in terms of the conditions you have to find in order to sustain a petition.

- Okay, I just wanna make sure that people weren't hearing you say delinquent and think that was just about missing school or something.

Aarron.

- I guess my question is kind of always...

I mean, we know that juvenile crime, like, adults are committing most of the crime that we see in the city.

Juveniles are a small percentage of that, but there is kind of a big rhetoric right now of like, juveniles are driving the crime, and how do we combat the perception when we see case after case of like, fifteen-year-olds breaking into cars, doing carjackings and things like that.

But then you've got data that says like, they're a smaller percentage of the crime.

How do we combat that perception, the data versus what people are actually feeling?

- The ways that the community feels is a reaction to a spike in offenses, generally.

Adult offenses as well as juvenile offenses, but juvenile offenses, youth offenses are only about 10% of what we found to be involved in crime.

Now of that, of the ones that are presented for the first time to the court, the recidivism rate is around 20, 22%.

It's a small percentage.

But realizing that the public's sensitivity to the increases in what they've seen as violent crimes, and that's been the major problem that's driving the media narrative.

We have to distinguish between what is a juvenile-age demographic up to 18 years.

And then in the event that a youth is going to be transferred, for instance, to DCS, we've maintained jurisdiction up to 19 if the person's committed to DCS.

But we have to make sure we distinguish between a youthful person who is actually an adult, your 19, 20, 21-year-olds.

And when they refer to it in the media, when they say youth, the initial perception is this is a juvenile-aged jurisdiction person.

That's not necessarily the case.

- Another narrative that, I mean, again, the media that which Aarron and I are part of, social media, that kind of way things sort of spread now between just the way people exchange information and with this perception of young people being involved.

Another perception, and sometimes, it's definitely been identified as a reality.

But I'm curious, in your experience, how many of these young people are gang-related?

And another part of that narrative is, well, young people can commit a lot of offenses and it gets washed away when they turn 19.

We'll talk about the new blended sentencing law, but in the past until very recently, there was this notion that, well, the gangs could put these young people up to do a lot of things.

And the kids, the young people would know it's all gets washed away when I'm 19, so I kind of have a a get-out-of-jail-free card, literally.

Is that a reality or is that a small percentage of what goes on?

- It's a smaller percentage than the public would actually know, and I don't have the exact numbers, but there are instances where adults who are not gang-related are influencing youth.

I've heard stories where they'll set up these bank gaming houses for youth that's been a runaway, in a runaway status or is having issues in the family unit.

We have a lot of homeless children in our community, unfortunately, and they are prey to adults who want to use them to commit offenses because they convince them that there are really no consequences, but there are consequences.

And we are making sure not only that the youth that commits these offenses are responsible, are held responsible, and it has to be, of course, something that is developmentally appropriate for that youth, depending on their age, their experience, their prior involvement with the system or non-involvement in the system.

But also holding the adults responsible.

We find instances where, actually, family members are encouraging the youth to commit these offenses because of economic resources that they need.

- Well, do you have, in terms of these complicated situations, and again we're gonna get to the transfers to adult court and the real violent crime that some gets a lot of particular emphasis.

Do you have the tools you need, the resources you need, in terms of intervening in these young people's lives, in terms of getting to the adults are part of the problem?

Or are you just lacking resources and people and money?

Or are you lacking the laws that let you do the things you feel like you need to do?

- I'm glad you asked that question because in December of this past year, the County Commission gave us an allocation of $2.3 million.

This was forced to primarily hire youth development specialists, 21 positions.

These are counselors that are now specialists in juvenile intervention.

Heretofor the system, our counselors have looked in toward the system in terms of what the work they did, preparing cases and doing research and preparing documents for presentations to court.

We are actually starting to now work with the families themselves to turn that trend around.

And in that regard, we develop relationships not only with the youth that are involved in the justices, but also with the families to make sure they have the resources they need to make sure our community partners are there aligning them with the resources and the training.

A lot of parents have not learned how to be parents.

They may be two or three generations of family members that have not had significant education, have not had significant job opportunities.

We want to provide those for the families to make sure they have the resources to do the proactive, pro-social work they need with the children.

- And before we go, to Aarron, are you seeing success with that?

- We are now.

We have just started.

We hired most, if not all of those positions now.

We started the training.

We sent a group of about 45 of our staff to Davidson County, Nashville to try to model some of the programs they've had that are successful interventions for their families.

- Okay, Aarron.

- That's what I was gonna kinda ask.

With these specialists, like, what are they seeing a lot of the time when they go into these homes as far as, you know, the youth that have been involved in crimes and we're going in and doing this work.

Like, what are some of the things that they're seeing as far as the families that is maybe leading to them doing these things?

- Well, we all know all of the social factors that affect that.

Lack of education, lack of opportunity for good job training.

Also, not having historic resources in the family, not having generational wealth in the family where the family can continue to sustain itself generationally.

And we find some families that actually are resistant to their children getting an education.

They feel they need to get out and get a job.

And when a parent who has had a history of having involvement in the criminal justice system has a child that's coming up, often they encourage that behavior because they consider that going to work.

They've not had the opportunities at jobs and not had opportunities at getting job training.

And we're trying to provide that, make sure we align the resources available in the community and the training and the skills and learning how to manage a bank account, learning how to do a successful job application, learning how to put together a resume.

We have community partners that are working with these families, with our youth development specialists and aligning those resources.

- Tell me a little more about that.

So you mentioned they may have parents or family that were also involved in the justice system.

How often is that being seen where there's that connection?

- You'd be surprised.

There have been generations.

You may have, for instance, a 38, 40-year-old grandmother who's raised a child as a teenager whose child is now raising their child as a teenager.

That breaks the cycle of education.

That breaks the opportunity for pro-social involvement 'cause now they've gotta deal with raising their children.

And so when you have a child raising a child, you get this outcome, and it is a problem, a cycle we're trying to break.

That's why when we're focusing on that 75% that is on our child welfare side, to make sure the families now are getting the training and support service they need.

Now, if we find that a parent or a guardian, somebody who's the supposedly responsible adult in that family is encouraging that behavior, we're gonna have interventions.

Ive talked with DA Mulroy about making referrals in the event we find situations where a parent or custodian has been responsible for encouraging delinquent behavior and we refer them those for potential prosecution.

- Let me run through some numbers real quickly just 'cause we talked earlier about the perceptions and the realities.

All delinquency charges, again, charges of young people through your court, from '22 to '23, they were up 16%.

I don't have the number from '21 to '22, but that was really the kind of post-COVID rise nationally and locally of crime and juvenile crime.

In the first quarter of this year, so from 2023 to 2024, all delinquent charges were down 12%.

Overall crime, this is all adults, juveniles, was down 14%.

Major violent crime was down 10%.

Property crime down 23%.

Back to the juveniles, the number of delinquency cases, again, in the first quarter from '23 to '24, was down 38%.

Cases is individuals or cases can involve multiple charges.

Do I have my terminology right?

- Cases can involve multiple charges.

It can be an individual with several distinct charges.

And oftentimes, it's at least three additional charges for one delinquent act or one delinquent.

- Yeah.

That's a huge drop.

And the 38%.

Now is that... You're not part of the police department.

I mean, the criminal justice system has all its parts and pieces, but was that simply more fewer arrests or was it really, from your seat, a reduction in the amount, in the number of juveniles committing crime?

- A reduction in the amount of juveniles committing crime.

And one of the things that we learned early on was a lot of our community parties, we were working in silos.

For instance, there was no communication between law enforcement, no communication between the school system, no communication, for the most part, sharing data, with other community partners who are responsible for the outcomes of our families.

And we've aligned with these community partners now to share that data, to share the resources, to make sure, for instance, working with the school system.

I recently did a truancy video along with my Chief Magistrate, Aftan Strong, addressing truancy going into this new school year.

One of the things we did at the beginning of the previous school year was we started a truancy clinic.

We had resolved a majority of the cases, some self-corrected coming out of COVID, 'cause there were about two or three years where there were no truancy cases being heard by the juvenile court.

When we came in, we inherited those cases.

We got with the school system and asked them to find out what cases have already self-corrected.

And then the school system sent notices, their responsibility to address truancy, but we have to help them as a partner.

We had a truancy clinic of the 848 families that were still had children truant.

We found a lot of situations where it was not necessary neglect, but lack of resources and opportunity.

We had families, for instance, that would go online or try to go online if they didn't have access to a computer or the internet, they would go to the public library and try to get the children registered.

Well, if you don't have a vehicle to get your child to the doctor, get the the shot records and then navigate the system of getting registered, that's a problem.

We corrected about 48% of those truant cases in that clinic.

- Aarron.

- So, I mean, it seems like that's really a major part of this.

I think sometimes maybe we get in the idea of like, you know, we look at these charges and we sort of like, I guess villainize these kids a little bit.

But I mean, it seems like often, it really is a result of things at home, poverty, things like that.

- Our statistics show that it's about 2% of the juvenile-aged children in Shelby County that are committing these offenses-- - Two percent of the overall population.

- The overall population in that juvenile age demographic.

The unfortunate thing is that it stigmatizes all of the other 98% of the children.

I was involved in this program called Do the Write Thing.

It's a writing program involving middle school children, youth that write a paper.

One of these young men, and I was one of the judges last year, one of these young men wrote about the fact that he felt uncomfortable just walking out in public, in a public area, because adults would look at them because of their hair, because of their manner of dress and categorize them as a potential offender.

And it affects the confidence and the ability to feel comfortable in the community for children, African-American children, who are unfortunately stigmatized by the 2% of the offender population.

- Let me move to a question that was very controversial and during your run for juvenile court judge.

It was controversial when Steve Mulroy, the DA, was running against Amy Weirich, the former DA, which is transfers of young people to adult court.

One, what have you found in your near two years in terms of, you are transferring some.

And so what are those criteria?

What are those situations?

And then let's move into the changes around blended sentencing.

But start about how often this happens or what are those criteria of taking a young person and saying, "No, they need to be tried as an adult."

- The criteria set by statute, we have to find one.

And now let me explain this.

A transfer hearing is a probable cause hearing, it's not a criminal prosecution.

If a youth is transferred to the adult court, then they'll have a trial, of course, a trial by jury if they choose to have one.

And that measures by a "beyond a reasonable doubt".

So probable cause hearing, hearsay is admissible in probable cause hearings and we have to find, one, that an offense probably was committed, and two, that the youth was probably the offender.

And then from that, we have to determine whether or not the youth should be either committed to a institution for the developmentally disabled or mentally infirm.

And then we have to find, the next factor is whether or not they're a threat to the community.

And if in determining that, whether or not it was an offense against a person or property, and then whether or not there was gang involvement.

So these are the criteria that have to be met before they can transferred.

- More often than not, are these violent crimes involving a murder or an attempted murder?

- More often than not, they are.

- And at that point, those juveniles are completely within the other system, the adult system.

- If they're transferred, they're in the adult system.

And it can involve even misdemeanor offenses, but it is usually on your more serious, your aggravated robberies, aggravated assaults, theft of property, carjackings, those offenses.

Let's talk about blended sentencing, which was passed in the last legislative session.

I think it just went into effect July 1st.

Maybe it was sooner.

I'm gonna read and then I'll let you comment on it.

"Under the bill, juvenile court can keep the minor "under its jurisdiction until the teen's 19th birthday "after which the court is authorized to impose "an additional sentence to be served on or before their 24th birthday if they violate conditions."

Before this bill, juveniles served their sentence, as we talked about earlier, and there is at least a perception among some that because their record was wiped clean at 19, they kind of had a whole reset and they could get away with a lot as a young person.

And now it's not the binary choice of transferring to adult court or keeping them as a juvenile.

- Now, the bill has not completely passed yet.

It's still under, I think, summer study.

It passed the House and then it has to go, I think, before the Senate maybe the other way around.

- Talk about how that would change things for you.

Are you in favor?

I mean, it's one of the few things that unite people left and right, but it doesn't have to unite you.

- There are many iterations across the country of blended sentencing bills, extended jurisdiction bills.

The components that are most effective are those that give the juvenile court the ability to continue to keep a youth within our system up to age 24, 25, just depends on how the bill is drafted.

The bill that we currently have, our Juvenile Judges Association is opposed to some of the conditions in it.

They were, for instance, having mandatory imposition of an adult sentence in the event there were other offenses that were committed during the period they are serving their juvenile rehabilitation process.

And if it was a class A felony, it was gonna be four years additional, class B felony, it'd be three years additional.

We have to have a hearing before the youth turns 19 to determine whether or not they should be transferred into the adult system once they finish out the juvenile sentence.

And so there are components that are complicated for our Juvenile Judges Association.

We have had a advocate working with us to try to push portions of that we are more interested in having.

- A couple minutes left, I think Aarron was gonna ask about the situation with the building, with the actual court building right now.

- Yeah.

Let's talk about that.

So when are we gonna be back open?

- If I could tell you that, if I had a crystal ball, I've been told by the county it should be by the end of this month and we'll begin to transition back in.

I have stated this before, I'm not moving back into that building or bringing the public into that building until I hear from the health director, Dr. Taylor, because I take my directions from her as to whether or not it's safe to go back in.

But the county's told us that we're on track and it should be the end of the month.

Now, let me say this.

I have to first thank all of our community partners, the judges over in circuit court, the judges in criminal court who allowed us access to courtrooms in 140 Adams and 201 Poplar and also Chief Justice Holly Kirby, who gave us the...

They have a supreme court room in the circuit court building, which we've been able to use.

We've been able to keep our court standing.

I'd like for this to be a case study because our staff has stepped up, the judges in this community have stepped up.

Our community partners have stepped up to make sure that we did not have any diminution services to community from our juvenile court system.

- And I'm gonna ask another question.

Speaking sort of court operations, my understanding is that we recently lost a magistrate, Ms. Taylor Bachelor.

Why did she leave the court?

- I'm not at liberty to speak about this.

Personal family matters.

There are things that made it complicated, I'll say that.

We have dockets, on our dockets, dependency neglect matters and it involves DCS, and with regard to a particular family matter, it was gonna be difficult for her to continue in that role as a magistrate hearing in the case.

- And briefly-- - I'm gonna say this.

I'd like to bring her back in.

It would probably be in an area that does not involve DCS so that it's not complicated to her and her ability to serve this court.

- A magistrate does what, briefly?

- They hear cases.

They stand in.

Our magistrates hear anything that I would hear.

I could hear on review.

They do child support.

Now we have 40 magistrates.

These are the ones that work-- - Forty, four-zero?

- Forty magistrates, yeah, that handle child support matters.

Right now, that's all according to the state since the state pays their salaries.

That's all that they can hear.

We're trying to work it out so that they can also hear child custody matters.

And then we hear DNNs, they hear termination of parental rights, truancy matters.

In fact, Magistrate Bachelor was hearing our truancy cases.

- Okay, I think actually we're out of time here.

We can talk to you for another 26 minutes.

We do appreciate you being here.

You've always been really great about being available and we appreciate that very much.

Thank you, Aarron.

Thank you, Judge Sugarmon.

If you missed any of the show tonight, you can get the full episode online at WKNO.org or you can search for it on YouTube or you can go to The Daily Memphian site.

Coming up soon, State Senator Brent Taylor, who's been pushing a lot of these bills we've talked about, along with Just City's Josh Spickler, also the interim president of CEO in a couple weeks.

Thanks very much and we'll see you next week.

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