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- The Memphis City Council on priorities for the year ahead.

Tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by the new chair of the Memphis City Council, Ford Canale.

Thanks for being here.

- Thanks for having me.

- We also have the outgoing chair of the Memphis City Council, JB Smiley.

Thanks for being here again.

- I'm happy to be here.

- And I should note you're still on the City Council.

Just the one year, the tradition of a one-year term.

So you went from vice chair to chair and you remain on the Council.

Let me also welcome Bill Dries with the Daily Memphian.

I'll say before we get started, we'll talk about a lot of things today, the budget.

We'll talk about public safety.

We'll talk about all kinds of things we can get to with.

But we're taping this Thursday morning.

There's obviously predictions at this point of a big storm event tomorrow.

So we're not talking about that.

And these guys aren't just hanging out here while, their constituents are buried in snow and ice.

So I want to say that up front.

As we end of the year, we've done a number of stories of about crime being down.

The stats are down.

They're trending in a direction I think everyone welcomes.

You know, the violent crime rate was was down, homicides down 25%, guns stolen from cars down 25%, car thefts down 40%, and car break-ins 19%.

A lot of good numbers.

Some I think aggravated assaults was about even.

But all those are from historic highs, right?

So I guess I'll start with the new chair here.

What do you want to see in the next year in terms of the city's part of the criminal justice system, the public safety system, which is primarily the police?

And I should always remind people, you all don't have control over the judges, the judicial commissioners, bail, the D.A., the judges, all those other parts are not under the city's purview.

But the police department obviously is a big part of this.

So what do you want to see in this upcoming year?

- Yes, I mean, I think all of us would like to see part one crimes come down further.

I think they're trending in the right direction, but we're not there yet.

It's still a work in progress.

Obviously, we want our homicides to come down.

They have, they were, in 2024 they're the lowest level since 2020, I believe.

So our job is to give the police their resources they need to do their job effectively.

And I think with the promotion of three of, excuse me, four new deputy chiefs having some new eyes and some new leadership is helpful, but always constantly trying to recruit and retain good officers to do the work of the Memphis Police Department, which is a very tough job.

It's hard to recruit police officers anywhere right now, but especially in a high crime city.

So we need to do everything we can to support them.

I think for long term, You know, we still have police stations that we need to be either rebuilt or renovated.

We need to get their fleet to where it needs to be.

- That's cars, the squad cars.

- Correct.

But also, I've learned over the last few months that the aviation also needs some love.

And that's a big expense for a new helicopter.

But we need to give them everything they need to effectively do their job-- - And Chief Davis has been interim for this past year.

I imagine the mayor is going to come forward and want to make her permanent.

Where do you stand on her being the permanent police chief?

- I support her being the permanent police chief.

- Let me bring in JB, things you want to see.

And again, where do you stand on excuse me, on Chief Davis's future.

- Okay.

So I think where we need to go is essentially where Chairman Canale left off.

We need to pay particular attention on the number of officers we have in our communities.

We have to do a better job of recruiting officers and we have to find ways to make sure when they work here, they stay here.

And I think for me, it's about allocating resources to recruitment because we need to increase the number of officers we have in our community so that we can get to the point where people can feel safe in their homes, in a community.

We do that by implementing more robust community policing efforts.

And then as relates to the police chief, the interim police chief, what I support is what the people want.

And I want to make sure that the mayor's administration, the the police officers who are in command and also the Police Association are walking lockstep.

I think if we can do that, we get to a point where everyone is happy when they're working and doing the best job for the people of Memphis.

- Let me bring in Bill.

- To that point, do you think that all of those players in the police department and law enforcement walking in lockstep, lockstep, sorry.

Do you think that there has been a change in that in the year or so that we've had an interim police director?

- Well, I think I think what you saw, what what you're seeing currently, why, you know, the police seem to be more attentive to what's happening in the community.

You see them getting in a rhythm of working together, having more dialogs, better conversations in the hopes of that they can continue to work together collectively and collaboratively to put the people of Memphis first.

And I think this always has to be the goal.

It can't be about personalities.

It can be about who has authority.

It has to be about how do we put our constituents in the best position.

Our job is really simple.

You can just, you know, synthesize it into one line.

We have to provide for the general welfare of the people who call Memphis home.

And I think that's what we're headed.

- Mr. Chairman, you were very vocal about the need for tighter state laws on reckless driving, things like that at the state level and for the DA's Office to prosecute those cases and state laws have changed.

Cars can now be seized as a result of that.

So are the laws being used?

- They are.

But we also have to work within the constraints of our MPD policy.

So, you know, we have a no chase policy, but that's where the state has come in and been a big help to us by sending more THP officers here.

- Tennessee Highway Patrol.

- Yes, because they will pursue.

And the more officers that they allocate to Memphis and Shelby County, the better because they work in great collaboration with MPD.

And if they take care of our interstate system, that can push more of our officers into the city to focus on what they need to.

So, yes, the short answer is yes, they are are being addressed.

But we do have to have the follow through from the DA and the judges and judicial commissioners.

- Do you think that MPD's chase policy should change?

- Personally, I do.

But that's coming from Ford Canale, that's not coming from and I'm not the police chief.

I know that MPD has their own reasons and the mayor may have his own reasons, but that's just coming from me personally.

- Mr. Chairman Emeritus, do you think the chase policy should change?

- Well, what I'm you know, I think I was at the eye doctor yesterday and a young lady was talking about what happened in Byhalia.

What happened in Byhalia, an officer was chasing an individual who was fleeing, the individual's fleeing who did not have their lights on.

And just an older gentleman who was just driving about his way was struck by the vehicle and passed away.

Not only did the person driving the vehicle pass away, it almost, it paralyzed the other individual in the car.

And I think when you think about the chase policy, is it absolutely necessary to chase on some instances, possibly?

Absolutely.

There are some times where you have to absolutely chase.

But if it's a person with a misdemeanor, with a tail light, do we need to chase?

I think there's a fine balance that we have to strike with putting people who have nothing to do with a crime in harms risk with the people who are committing crimes.

I think the policy should be we're only chasing when it's absolutely necessary, when someone's lives are at stake.

- You bring up the tail lights and the kind of minor offenses, the DOJ, the Federal DOJ report that came out some weeks ago criticized MPD for, you know, arresting people for, you know, minor offenses, for pursuing the smell of marijuana coming from a car, broken tail lights, expired tags.

But MPD.

I mean, our Aarron Fleming, who covers public safety for us, did a ride along with the police in one of these saturation patrols where they're going into neighborhoods and they are pulling people over with expired tags and the smell of marijuana.

And and what critics I don't know if this is a neutral phrase or not, critics will call sometimes pretextual stops, right?

The Council debated that, I think, what, a year ago now, a year and a half ago, about whether or not MPD should be doing pretextual stops.

I'll go to you.

Do you want to see more of those sort of arrests?

And in pursuit of minor offenses, I mean, doesn't take much to drive around the city and see many, many tags that are expired, that are maybe even suspect.

All kinds of things like that.

Should MPD be pursuing those offenses?

- Absolutely.

I mean, if it's the law, the law is the law.

And if you're not going to enforce the why have it, you know, so I'm not sure that that needs to be their primary focus because we have a lot of other issues we have to deal with.

But we know that we have an issue with fake tags, expired tags, and a lot of those are stolen vehicles, and that helps recover some of those vehicles by pulling those cars over.

When it comes to the chase, going back to the chase, I agree with Chair Smiley that, you know, you certainly don't want to put anybody's life on the line or in harm's way and you have to make a critical decision.

But sometimes you can find some people that have done other nefarious acts and those people that are drag racing across the city and get them off the street-- - The DOJ report, before I go back to Smiley, did the DOJ report give you pause on any of these things in terms of these, you know, enforcing things like expired tags and so on?

- Look, I agree with the mayor.

We are going to learn from it and we're going to do the best we can to make MPD the best and follow our policies and procedures.

But what I will say is, if you send the DOJ into any city, any major police department, I promise you you're going to find some.

- Yeah, JB Smiley, you're reasoning this notion of pretextual stops and minor offenses?

And again, that in light of the DOJ report.

- So for me, I don't look at it in terms of what the issues are nationally.

I look at it with a very 901-specific focus.

And our issues are not the issues of Detroit, are not the issues of Chicago or Los Angeles.

Ours are Memphis specific issues.

We have an issue with counterfeit tags.

So if we know that there are counterfeit tags, we know there's people making counterfeit tags, I'm okay with the police department seeking people who are producing those conterfeit tags, or driving around with those conterfeit tags because we have to address that particular issue.

But if it's a tail light out, I know what it's like not having much money.

I went to law school with no money in my pockets and times my tail lights were out.

I don't want to be pulled.

I was just trying to go to school.

So I understand that there's very nuanced issues.

So I can't say this is the time you should enforce the law, this is the time you shouldn't enforce the law.

What I would like to see is officers use their discretion.

They know when someone- when they talk to you they can ultimately determine if someone is about carrying out the business.

- One more public safety thing from me and I'll go back to Bill, who may have more than that.

But the cameras and the plan that the mayor and I think you all approved this huge amount of cameras are going to go out there.

You support, you're worried about privacy.

Are you worried about any of that stuff?

No, no, no.

But I mean.

- Yeah, I think the cameras are a great tool.

It's proven, the police departments across the country have used them.

And especially when you're an understaffed police department, cameras, drones, anything that can help when you don't have human capital on the ground, I support it.

- Same to you.

- Ditto.

- Let me go to Bill.

- Do you think that the city and in assessing the DOJ report, do you think that the city needs oversight from a federal court to, in effect, hold its feet to the fire on whatever reforms there might be?

- I just think it's hard for an agency to to police itself or to make sure that it's implementing policy.

I do believe that we have areas of improvement.

So does every independent agency across the country, whether you're talking about local government, where you're talking about federal government, we can all be better.

What I do understand is, you know, there's some concern.

I understand it could cost us more money.

I understand all these things, but for me, I just trying to I try to balance it with how do we put people in the best position?

How can we make sure that we are making a step toward progress?

And I don't necessarily know if it needs to be a federal agency or a federal court, but I do believe in independency of someone making sure we're implementing what we need to implement.

- Can the city police itself?

- Yes.

No one knows 901 like we do.

And you would never convince me otherwise.

Now, we're not dismissing or taking it lightly, and we know that we have some changes and some cleanup to be made, and we will do that.

But we don't need someone looking over our shoulder who doesn't know Memphis and its own unique challenges telling us what to do.

Now we admit that some mistakes were made with some officers, and we will correct that.

But we don't need Big Brother coming down here telling us what to do when they don't know the landscape of Memphis.

- So to piggyback off what he said, what I did not say to you is I believe federal courts should come in and tell us what to do.

But what I still believe that needs to be some type of independent, whether it's a collection of people who live in the city of Memphis, who have an expertise in law enforcement, or whether it's retired officers who used to work for the Shelby County Sheriff.

But I just believe that it has to be a result or has to be some type of agency that has ties to our community.

Everything I talk about is 901.

901.

You can't tell me how to govern 901 if you don't spend any time here.

I just have a hard time with that.

- On the subject of federal court approval, one of the referendums that voters approved in November dealt with restoring runoff elections for city elections.

Will that have to go before a federal judge?

- Well, I've had this conversation with people who opine about, you know, what the Council should be doing as it relates to the runoff provision.

What I do expect in the near future is the Council filing something to just see what the judge says.

I think it was a federal decree that put us in this position.

I think it has to be a federal decision to kind of to restore the will of the people of Memphis.

- And the referendum that got the most attention, the gun control referendum.

The Council has now approved an ordinance that includes all of those provisions on the first of three votes.

So is it going to be all of those provisions, some of them or, you know, some variant?

- We'll see how it plays out on third reading.

But again, that's also that's a trigger law that would only come into effect if the state were to change its position.

I don't see that happening in the near future.

So we'll see what happens.

- But it's not that the voters approved all of them, so automatically the-- - Well, the voters can't overrule what the state's done.

- Right.

- State law will always supersede anything that we do locally with the ordinance.

- Right.

But but given that it's not a matter of putting everything the passed into it.

- Correct.

- In those parts and pieces including I'm going to forget around permitting around assault weapons, around what they call red flag laws, those kinds of things again, passed through a referendum that you would you would really pushed as chair passed overwhelmingly in the city of Memphis.

But again, it's up to state law.

But you talked before about Big Brother.

I mean, the state was not happy about that even going on the ballot, talked about Cameron Sexton, the very powerful speaker of the House, state House, said, you know, we could withhold money, we could not work with you.

Are you all, just in town this week, Cameron Sexton, the governor, the leader of the state Senate.

Have you heard that there's going to be retribution from Memphis for doing this?

I'll start with you.

- No, I don't think they were happy with the way what the way it went down.

But ultimately, I think that, you know, they understand that if you, look this, go back to Chair Smiley saying that no one knows Memphis like we do.

Talking to local law enforcement, talking to citizens about the permitless carry, no one that I've talked to thought that there was a problem with having to have a permit to carry.

So why fix something that wasn't broken?

But also for law enforcement side, for their fear.

And they have to assume that everyone is carrying and their risk of walking up to a vehicle or going into a store or whatever, that person that every single person that brings a lot of fear into their lives and their them doing their job.

- Let me segway, we've got 9 minutes left in the show here.

And one of the biggest issues that civically in a city, the county right now that people are talking about is one over which you all don't have a whole lot of authority, which is Memphis Shelby County Schools.

And the fight, is a tame term for it, between the school board and the superintendent.

But the city does have some role.

I mean, you all voted down the permit for a new high school that the the system was going to build in Cordova.

You all have talked about, the mayor certainly has talked about funding certain programs, select programs, and there are other outside entities that fund programs in the system.

I'll just ask you as a observer and someone you know, the majority vast majority of students in the Memphis-Shelby County School system are Memphians.

Your take on what's going on with the fight between the superintendent and the school board?

I'll start with you.

- I think it's a total mess.

I think that we've got to put the students first and put petty politics aside and do what's best for our students so that we get them educated up because there are tremendous amount of job opportunities and businesses that want to come to Memphis, but they want to know can you fill the pipeline of workers?

So I think they need to come together.

I would go back and just say that this is one of the reasons why I supported a consolidated government so that there's not three basically three separate branches of a government with Shelby County, Memphis, and then Ed in the school board as a third so that everybody can get on the same page.

Until we can start working together and lock arms on certain issues, I don't think we ever move forward completely.

- Your take on it, and you were on Feagins' transition team, right?

Or the coaching team and all that.

So, I mean, are you do you think what's happening to her is fair?

- Well, I don't I don't get into, you know, whether what's happening to it is fair.

I just go back to what's our purview.

We don't necessarily have purview over the schools.

I believe that they have to make that decision for themselves on how they want to move forward.

But what I what I push strongly against is the state saying they're going to come in and take over.

I always remind people that the Achievement School District a state-run school district had the worst scores of any district that we had in our state.

And it's like it's akin to telling JB Smiley to teach a dance class.

I don't dance.

All the results would be bad.

- And I should reference for those who didn't see it, Bill wrote a good story this morning in Daily Memphian about Cameron Sexton and other leaders who are in town talking about being very unhappy with the fight between the superintendent and school board, wanting to come in and talk to about a takeover, talking about changing how school boards are appointed.

Really briefly, what's your take on the state, the possibility of state intervention, And Memphis-Shelby County Schools?

- Nobody wants that.

Nobody wants a takeover, but they've got to figure it out over there.

- Okay.

Bill.

- I want to go back to gun control gun laws, that because this past week you heard from your attorney, Alan Wade, what I thought was an interesting point, and that is that however long the ordinance takes to pass, the Council could get involved in people who have guns illegally already.

Is that is that something the Council will explore?

- So for me, I think it's something that we we have been exploring.

I think Alan alluded to it because he's doing the research to make sure he's putting us or giving us the best information.

So that we can make a decision as a body.

But ultimately, I think it comes down to we can pass any law, the state can pass any law.

You know, the federal government can pass any law.

But when we pass a law, the ultimate question for every elected body is can we enforce the law?

And I think once we pass a law, or consider passing a law, we have to have a conversation with MPD.

We have to have a conversation with the judges to talk about the likelihood of enforcement, because there's no point in passing a law that we can enforce.

- Mr. Chairman, to his point, though, when a police officer approaches a car and they see a gun or they approach someone on foot and they see a gun, they can't ask, "Do you have a permit for it?"

So how do you combat illegal firearms?

- So that's the hard part.

And I think that I can speak for my friend here saying that we have no interest in taking guns out of responsible gun owners hands.

But when gun owners are not responsible with them and they leave them in their car under their seat, in the glove box, whatever, window gets broken out and you get more guns in the hands of people that don't need to have them, that becomes a problem.

So what can we do?

We're yeah, we're exploring on how we get the guns out of the people's hands that don't need them and can't legally have them, especially, you know.

- Even under the present law?

- Well, I mean, again, like what he said.

We'll see what we can do legally.

We're not going to exceed what we can do legally, but we do want the people of Memphis made it clear that they want less guns on the streets.

And it's not the responsible gun owners that before this law passed, the permitted carry holders and everybody else, the hunters and every, nobody is interested in taking any of their guns or their rights away.

But there are a lot of bad actors on the streets that have them and have no business having a gun.

- With just a couple minutes left, so we'll go through some things very quickly here.

MATA is a disaster.

I think there's no that's just an objective statement, not a qualified statement.

But you all were on Council.

I mean, did you not know what was going on with the financial?

You're shaking your head.

I think that some people are like, how did Council, how did the mayor's office not know what was going on?

How did the MATA board not know how bad the situation was?

- That's a great question.

I knew that it was bad.

I didn't know it was that bad.

I knew they needed some additional funding.

And we were exploring ways to maybe look at doing some things differently, but also finding.

You know, we passed through Transit Vision, having its own dedicated funding source, which didn't really level up until several years down the road.

But I would say that the problems were hidden pretty well, financially.

- Is it time to just clear house and clean house, maybe bring in a third party outside service?

I mean, what is the solution going forward?

Because the city needs transit.

- Well I'm gonna be clear, I don't think the solution is Transpro.

If you look at-- - That's the outside consultant.

- Outside consultant who's essentially trying to assume the COO role of MATA.

my issue with that organization is when he led his organization to Charlotte, there was an article just came out of Charlotte that talked about they are just now cleaning up the mess that he left behind.

That's problematic.

And if you look at what the Council said about him when he led Charlotte, they said he was a disaster.

I have a hard time bringing someone that was in a position-- - But does it need new leadership?

- I don't necessarily know if it needs new leadership.

What I do believe is I know that this board, new MATA board, came in with a specific goal of righting the wrongs that happened in the past.

They are focused and they're going to give Bacarra whatever she needs to be successful.

- Bacarra Mauldin, new CEO who was on a few months ago was on and answered a bunch of great questions.

People can get that at WKNO.org Go ahead, Bill.

- Should the dedicated source of funding for MATA remain?

- Yes.

- Yes.

With oversight from the MATA board and with this new engaged Council, we're going to pay more attention to MATA than we have ever before.

We have not been as hands on with MATA.

We usually get the information from the president and we say, okay, this sounds good, this looks good, but you'll get a lot more questions now.

- Got a couple of last questions for both of you.

Are you going to give yourself raises?

That was also on the ballot that the City Council can now give itself raises.

Is that a priority for you?

- I will assure you that I will never give myself a raise.

while I'm in office.

- Would you raise the rate for future, because you'll be termed out.

Would you raise the, I mean, what's the amount that you all make now?

- $34,000.

- Does it need to be more, not for yourselves, but for future Council members?

- Well, I will say this.

What I do understand is prior to taking office, I didn't understand the amount of work that did is required if you want to be a very good councilman.

You have to go into the communities a lot.

You're always on the phone, you're always answering calls.

There's never a time in which you're not a Council person.

What I do believe is that Council members should do a study to see what pay the Council should be paid going forward, not necessarily binding this Council, but, you know, just like mayor came in, he received a pay increase.

- I think that's fair.

Just like when we looked at some of the mayors, directors and chiefs, how we compete with the private market, but also our sisters, municipalities and counties.

So I think it's worth looking at.

But as far as trying to benefit ourselves, no.

- That is all the time.

We didn't get to lots of things.

I appreciate you both being here.

Appreciate you, Bill.

I mentioned Bacarra Mauldin was on the show some months ago.

You can go back to WKNO.org and get that.

We also recently spoke to DA Steve Mulroy, another show with Brent Taylor and London Lamar talking about the upcoming legislative session.

In a couple of weeks we've got Lee Harris and Judge Sugarmon from the juvenile court coming on.

We look forward to seeing you.

Thanks very much, and we'll see you next week.

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