[gentle music] - You were about to hear from three couples who found love later in life.

Faith brought one pair together.

Another had to get beyond a tragedy.

And these two fell in love after be ing friends for 30 years.

They are stories about faith, heartbreak, and friendship, and about the joy we find by sharing our lives.

[gentle music] Funding for The Best Times is provided by The Plough Foundation.

Striving to do the greatest good by helping the greatest number of people since 1964, additional funding is provided by the members of WKNO.

Thank you.

Hello everybody and welcome to The Best Times I'm George Larrimore.

In this episode, we're going to be talking about finding love and building a life with someone after the age of 50.

In order to do that, we have to deal with our own history.

In some cases, it's the loss of a loved one.

In other cases, it's a divorce, but as we all know, from having gotten this far, life is full of surprises.

- Yes, I wanted some companionship, but I hadn't really thought about getting married again.

I just wanted somebody to do something with and not sit here all the time by myself.

- I didn't know a man could be so lonesome.

That was the thing that was killing me as I just, I just was so lonesome.

- Don and Linda were married for al most 51 years before Linda passed away from a heart attack.

Janice and her first husband Be n, were together for 35 years when Ben died of pancreatic cancer, then Janice and Don connected at Bellevue Baptist Church, where the couples had once been in the same Sunday school class.

They got together because of Janice's car.

And because of what Don believes was his prayer.

- We had talked about life had to go on for me.

I had prayed on the Sunday morning in Chattanooga for a new companion for a wife, my first wife and I had talked about this before she passed away.

I was reminded that Janice was a widow and now I'm a widower and we had talked.

So when I got home, I had the opportunity to find out when she was coming to Car Care next.

- It was at Car Care Ministry at church, our church services the cars of widows and single women.

And Don was the one who always brought the paperwork.

And his first wife had recently died.

And I wanted to tell him about grief share.

So when he brought me the paperwork, I was telling him all about that, that I needed to talk to him.

And he said, "Is it okay if I call you?"

And I thought, "Yeah, it's okay."

Well, Don called.

And he said, "Would you sit with me in church on Sunday?"

And I said, "Yes."

And he said, "Would you like to go out to eat after that?"

And I said, "Yeah, that'd be nice."

So that was our first date.

- I took her to Red Lobster and this, she had blackened catfish and I had shrimp.

So when I got ready to ask her for the second date, I said, "Do you wanna go to the seafood restaurant?"

She said, "Don, I don't really like seafood."

So I'm amazed, I got my second date.

- Before they retired, Don owned his own business and Janice was a teacher.

Now, both are very active at Bellevue Baptist and have many friends there.

Don proposed Janice in the courtyard, they were married in the church.

- That Sunday, that Don asked me to sit with him, he held my right hand and it was just like the Lord nudging me and saying, ok ay, Janice, pay attention.

He's holding your right hand just like I do.

And then I began to think more seriously about what was happening.

- When Janice accepted my proposal to sit with me in church and let me take her out.

I felt like right then that God had answered my prayer.

- You have to remember that we've both been married a long time by today's standards.

Don had been married a long time and me 35 years.

And you know by that time, what you're looking for and what you want and what you expect, it's not like starting from scratch.

- Janice and Don told us that before exchanging vows, they had open conversations ab out their individual finances and they made certain that their children and grandchildren approved of the marriage.

Then after a big garage sale, Don moved his stuff into Janice's house.

- You don't quit loving the first mate and you don't feel any less toward them.

You still are sad on the date that they died.

You still remember your first anniversary, but the idea that you need the companionship, you need someone to be there for you and someone of the same faith.

So I think that's really important to share your life with someone.

- Besides church, older single people often meet through volunteer activities, travel groups, exercise, or yoga classes, concerts, or museum events, and even at the farmer's market.

What about dating apps?

There are a lot of apps that serve older singles.

According to a study from the Pew Research Center, nineteen percent of people between the ages of 55 and 64 have tried dating apps.

And 13% of singles over 64 have tried online dating.

Pam Crittenden Johnson and her husband, Doug Johnson met at work.

Pam was a longtime news actor at WREG-TV.

Doug was a reporter, they became friends first.

- Bonnie and Clyde.

- There's so much to be said for being friends before you get into a romantic relationship, there's a lot to be said for establishing a bond and knowing you could trust somebody.

I mean, trust is a big factor in a successful relationship.

And we were fortunate enough to have that as friends for so long.

'Cause I guess we ended up being friends for nearly 30 years before we actually got into a romantic relationship, so.

- At WREG, their desk were close together in the newsroom and they often worked on the same stories.

So they got to know each other well.

- The intellectual part, it takes a much stronger role, you know yourself better, you know the other person better, especially if you've known them for a while, you know?

And that's what makes it a lot more valuable.

You already know the person, you like the person, you feel comfortable with the person.

And then if there's a spark, okay, all of a sudden it's a forest fire.

- And it took a while for their spark to happen.

Pam left WREG for a job as a manager at FedEx, it was there that she hired Doug as a producer.

- So I ended up being his boss at FedEx at one time, he was a producer in our video production department at FedEx.

So that brought him back to Memphis and he worked there for a while and it was great.

We had a great working relationship.

Like I said, I was still married.

There were no improprieties.

So then we weren't thinking romance at that time, we were just thinking friends.

I said, this is somebody I know can do a good job.

I think he'd be an asset to the team.

So that that's what happened.

And then that, while he was there, I was going through divorce proceedings and he'd already been married and divorced by that point too, I think, was that, yeah?

- Oh, that's very true.

- Yeah.

- Then in 2008, the economy fell into recession and there were layoffs at FedEx.

So Pam was the one who had to give Doug the bad news.

- When she had my termination papers on her desk to fire me from FedEx, I think that was right about the time she also said, "Hmm, maybe just maybe 'cause we wouldn't be working together anymore."

- Yeah, I had no role in the decision making at all.

It was just, here's the list of people you have to let go.

And I'm like, ah, yeah.

I'm like, oh look, I can't do this.

This is, it was, that was a hard time.

That was, but as I said, I jokingly now say I had to start dating him to make up for firing him at FedEx.

- Those who remarry later in life can run into the same issues as first timers and some new ones, including blended families.

Pam has a daughter and a son and both are pleased that she met and married Doug.

They were part of the ceremony.

Money can also be a big issue in any marriage, no matter the age.

So Pam and Doug resolved to talk about it.

- We had to look into that very seriously.

So we talked about, well, okay, I make this much, I have these expenses and both my kids were in college and had student loans and I'm helping pay those off, you know?

Okay, well I've got this and I've got this and I've got this.

And we have talked about this at length.

Not only before we got married, but have done that since, because we knew the second we got married, okay, marriage was nice, but we are this close to retirement.

So what are we gonna do?

This opens up a whole new chapter for both of us to discover new things.

I mean, we may end up doing things that we've both done a million times and love doing, but we may find a million new things that we come to love and enjoy doing together.

And it'll be possible because we're together.

- And because I know him so well and because we've been together so long, there's just certain things I just know and expect that will happen and don't have to worry about being insecure or being afraid or being worried about, what he might do when I'm not within eyesight, that kind of thing.

So you learn that as you get older.

- In this episode of The Best Times, we're only talking with couples who choose to marry, but living together instead is becoming more popular.

According to a study by the Pew Research Center in 2016, one person in twenty-five ov er the age of fifty was living with a romantic partner outside of marriage.

That's a 75% increase in 10 years.

And it's the biggest jump of any age group.

Mary and Bob Lee met through a mutual friend when Mary was trying to get her computer fixed.

Before they retired, Bob had been an IT guy.

Mary was a nurse anesthetist, but before they could get to a life together, Mary and Bob had to deal with the memories of a very public tragedy.

- I had said to myself, to everybody I knew and to God, I will never ever marry again.

- I didn't know that.

- While Bob worked on Mary's computer, they discovered they shared a mutual interest in flying.

They each own their own plane.

- So he said, "I'm out at the ai rport every Saturday morning.

Why don't you just come by sometime if you feel like it?"

So the next Saturday I appeared.

- I didn't expect her, I looked up, I was like, "She's here, oh no, what do I do?"

- Don't ask me to fly an airplane if you don't, if you don't really mean it.

So we went flying and he said, "Do you wanna go flying?"

And I said, "Yeah, well," I started to get in the passenger side and he said, "No, you can fly."

And I said, very nice, I'll fly.

So that was the beginning of the beginning.

- (George) You flew on your first date?

- It wasn't a date, it was just, I appeared and flew the airplane.

- It was a date to me.

To me, it was fantastic.

- Their shared interest was a relaxed way to get to know each other, an instant friendship, Mary called it.

But eventually there was so mething they had to talk about and work through the death of Bob's wife, Anne.

- And so I knew about the murder, but I had never talked to him.

And then one evening when he was working on the computer, he just sat back and we were chit-chatting.

And finally I said, what happened?

And then he told me the story.

- In 1999, Barbara Anne Lee, who was a well known West Tennessee horsewoman was abducted at a fast food restaurant by three teenagers and murdered.

What followed was a widely covered trial.

In a book by author David Wayne Brown, Bob Lee told how he learned to forgive his wife's killers.

But moving on to a new life with Mary was not easy.

Even after they committed to each other.

- That was probably one of the toughest things for us to work through.

And at one time I even said to him, I said, "You know, I'm sorry about your wife, I really am.

"I would've given anything for that not to have ever happened."

But I said, "It's us now."

It was almost like I was the other woman for a while.

And I don't think that was ever intentional, but that comes through.

And so I think that was something Bob had to work through.

And he did.

- Her, the attractiveness of her and her mannerisms and this way we got along, took a lot of my anger away.

I started feeling better, I was at ease with her, so that kind of relaxed me a little bit.

And then we talked more and each time we talked more and more and I still didn't get the computer fixed, but it just fit, everything just fit.

It was my recovery from all the things I was suffering from, the loss just kind of vanished.

And my attention turned to her and it was life saving for me.

- Bob and Mary's love story is not complete without the proposal.

It started with a casual flight to Arkansas and back, all the while Bob saying there was something he needed to talk about.

- I thought, what is on his mind?

And I really didn't know.

So we get back to my house, we're watching a movie and I need to get up at four o'clock in the morning.

It's about eight in the evening.

And I said, "Robert, it is my bedtime.

Either have to talk now or go home and we'll talk later."

And he said, "Okay, okay, okay, okay."

So then he says, "You know, we've been seeing a lot of each other" and I'm thinking, "Here's the dear John talk, he's dumping me."

I saw him sitting up and I'm going with this little smile on my face.

I will not let him know that I will be upset if he calls this off.

And I said, "Yes, we have seen a lot of each other," with flying and et cetera, et cetera.

And he goes, "Okay, will you marry me?"

And I said, "Yes."

- I said, "My God, she said, yes."

And I drove out when I left the house, which was, I yelled out the window of the car.

"She said, yes," driving down the street.

[gentle music] - Tonight, we're talking about finding love later in life.

I wanted to introduce our guest today, Chasity Grace who's an attorney who deals with matters involving seniors and Betty Shadish who's a family therapist and counselor.

Who's been at this for a long time and has talked with a lot of families about a lot of issues.

I wanna ask each of you and we'll start with you Chasity.

What are, and this is asking you to simplify something that's very complicated, but what are the secrets, if there are any, to having a successful relationship with someone later in life?

- Thank you and I think that's a wonderful question.

You know, legally, and you said an important word, communication and legally, one of the issues that I've seen more than anything are spouses who are coming into my office and have unfortunately, lost a spouse or their spouse is disabled and they don't understand the affairs.

They don't understand the assets and their expenses and that sort of thing.

There's just very little communication in terms of things that are difficult to talk about.

So if I had to identify the number one secret, if we wanna call it that, I would say to be open about communication when it comes to the hard stuff, because it's easy to talk about love.

It's easy to talk about kids and family, things that feel good to your soul, right?

But the difficult things that we don't wanna really plan for all the time is death and incapacity.

Those are the things that we need to talk about more and mostly, and is more important because should something happen, you'd be more prepared and then you'd be equipped to be able to take care of your loved one, with the information that you need.

- And if you are married to someone for 40 years, then you know those intimate parts of the life.

- Yes.

- But as she's saying here, and I just, it just occurred to me when you said that, you get married to someone that you've been with for six months or a year or two years, you don't know the ins and outs of their life.

- You do not.

- So what do you think?

- Well, there's been lots of research on what makes for a happy relationship, long-term relationship, and certainly two qualities, I think that are important.

We've gotta be attracted to the person, but we can't sell our soul for the attraction.

We've also got to have just like you're talking about, we've got to have knowledge.

We've got to be willing to talk about the hard things.

We've got to be able to say what we want, our expectations.

We got to have a joint vision of where are we going to?

Where's our relationship going, what do we want?

And that's a reason with couples I always recommend that if they're later in life especially, see somebody, talk about the legal issues, but also have premarital counseling.

We are in love, we feel it.

And that's what we wanna do is to feel it.

We don't necessarily want to talk about the hard things, because if we talk about the hard things people might get upset and nobody wants to take away from the good feelings.

But if you want to have a healthy relationship, you gotta have a good start.

That means you have a joint understanding of our, not just me, you, but our relationship.

- Maybe the most difficult question of all is when you enter into a relationship earlier or later and I think especially later is money.

They say there are a lot of difficult things in marriage.

Money is always on that list.

The term prenup is one that sets off these notions of suspicion.

Why do you, why are you asking me about a prenup?

Why do you think you need a prenup?

How do you help people understand this is something that you have to do.

It's not accusatory.

It's something that has to be done, how do you do that?

- Well, the one thing I will say say is when I'm dealing with the probate side of my practice, meaning I'm in court and families are fighting, more often than not, these are blended families.

These are second marriages or marriages where there are kids from prior relationships and there was no prenuptial agreement.

And so what I usually tell my clients is that you're not raising suspicion.

You're not planning for a divorce in the event of a prenuptial agreement, but you're just clearing the air.

Because remember, as I said before, to me, communication is number one.

But communication about the hard stuff, including things that we don't wanna talk about, maybe difficult relationships between the spouse and their stepchildren, difficult relationships between the parents and the spouse.

You know, those are things that you need to talk about.

And if there are finances or assets that you've had previously, and you have the idea that this would stay in the family on my side, then you've gotta talk about it and you have to have these agreements in place.

And I think that even though it's difficult to go through the process of entering into a prenuptial agreement, once you do that, then you can free yourselves and then you could be more open in your relationship.

And I think you could have some peace and more happiness because you don't have these thoughts in the back of your head, on what happens if my spouse should pass away, are their children gonna kick me out of the house?

What happens with this land that we've had for 40 years?

You don't have to ask yourself those questions because you've dealt with them in that agreement.

So I think it allows for families to be happier because they've dealt with that ahead of time.

- Betty, let me ask you the point she raised about blended families, which is an expression we hear a lot of.

And if you've been married before, the likelihood that you're entering into a blended family is very high.

It's one thing to say, all right, let's talk about the money.

It's another thing altogether to get there because, okay, just say that you and I are going to get married and I've got two children.

And I tell you that all my children are gonna love you.

And then they meet you and Thanksgiving and they do love you.

At least they say that they can.

- In the beginning.

- And your grandchildren go, yeah, we really want grandma to get married again.

But how do you get them on board?

- Well, what I would tell 'em in the very beginning, the number one reason for remarried couples to get a divorce is the children, it's yours and mine.

How you treat my children, how you don't treat my children.

How much time do you spend with yours?

How much time do you spend with mine?

I think that blended families is very difficult because just like you said, George, when you're dating, it's fine.

But when that person steps in and it's going to be apparent to you, what does that mean parenting will be for that new step-parent?

Are they gonna be a disciplinarian?

Are they gonna set boundaries on me that I'm not accustomed to?

We don't live in a vacuum.

We are accustomed to rituals and we don't like to change 'em we don't like to change those rituals.

And we just don't.

And I have couples coming to me all the time and saying, "Well, they loved him in the beginning" and turn to their partner and say, "What did you do to them?"

Like it's a condemnation, a judgment of you must have done something to cause him to not like you.

So yes, the more, I agree with you totally.

The more structure, the more you say on the front end, the more you understand it, the better able you are to deal with the challenges of remarriage.

- And can I add in there?

- Of course.

- Very quickly, the dynamic of a family changes over time as well, because you have those children are young.

- Yes.

- But there may come a time where as we age, our children are getting older and their thought processes are becoming more mature.

And they're thinking about what happens if mom should become disabled.

You know, do I wanna share the caregiving responsibilities with someone who's not my father?

You know, what does that look like?

So sometimes when those dynamics change, as we are aging, then that's where communication needs to occur again, because it may very well be that the relationship was perfectly fine during the entirety of your life.

And then you pass away and they're at odds now, now the children are at odds with the spouse.

But it's sometimes because there was some conversations that should have happened earlier than later.

- Yeah, it's so much of that is fear based.

What's gonna happen if, and I think if you are able to talk about what's gonna happen if, everybody's gonna feel more comfortable.

And that's what we want in families, in extended families, we want everybody to feel more comfortable with this and to embrace this relationship and support it because we need those connections with our extended family are very important for our relationship.

- I wanna thank our guests, Chasity Grace and Betty Shadish.

We have been talking about love and marriage later in life.

I'm George Larrimore.

Thank you so much for being with us on The Best Times.

Funding for The Best Times is provided by The Plough Foundation, striving to do the greatest good by helping the greatest number of people since 1964, additional funding is provided by the members of WKNO, thank you.

[gentle music] [acoustic guitar chords]