- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- The heads of the local Democratic and Republican parties, tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I am Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Worth Morgan.

He's chair of the Shelby County Republican Party.

Thanks for being here again.

- Yeah, thanks for having me.

- Along with Willie Simon who's head of the Shelby County Democratic Party.

Thank you for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

- Absolutely.

Along with Bill Dries, reporter with the Daily Memphian.

Thank you both for being here.

We'll talk about lots of issues.

I should say at the top, we're recording this a week before it airs, so there's a lot going on nationally that impacts locally.

There's a lot going on locally, so if there are issues we don't get to, it's just because of my schedule, we taped this a week ahead.

I'll start with both of you.

And I'm internally flipping a coin.

Your first time on the show, I'm gonna go to you first.

- Okay.

- We'll get to issues and specifics and so on.

But you know, obviously nationally, we live in this very partisan, very divided world.

You know, you look at Congress or the Senate, you know, it seems rarely that you get bills that get passed with bipartisan support.

It's very rare.

- Right.

- At a local level, it's different, it seems to me.

But how much does party and partisanship really matter in your mind at the local governmental level?

- I think it plays a role, but I think for the most part here in Shelby County, we're trying to just move the needle.

I mean, there's a lot of issues out there, a lot of things that have to get done in the city and in the county.

I think there's a lot of bipartisan workarounds that you have to put in place because what what happens is if we get in the gridlock, that means nothing happens.

And so I think for the most part in Shelby County, we try to play ball and we try to make sure the things that, but as long as we're not just going so far away from the values that either of us have, we wanna make sure that we're gonna progress in Memphis and Shelby County in the best way possible.

- Yeah.

Same question to you Worth, and you were eight years on the City Council.

And that's a nonpartisan race.

You're a Republican.

- In theory, you know, everybody kind of knows where the lines are.

So I'd say, it's issue to issue.

You know, if we're talking about how to pick up the trash and making sure we have good management in place at the City of Memphis, then it's more of a personnel and policies and procedures issue, than a party issue.

But if you start talking about taxing legislation, you start talking about gun control and some of the other hot button topics that do come in front of the body, then I think it doesn't necessarily become partisan so much rather than these are really driving principles that guide the Democrat Party and the Republican Party.

And the people that are associated with each, they continue to have those driving principles when they bring it to the issue.

So it's more of revealing, I guess, of the divide rather than that divide itself forcing itself on the issue.

- One more from me before I go to Bill, and that's, how much pressure do you feel, I'll stay with you Worth, from national leaders, President Trump, you know, most prominently in the Republican Party right now.

The priorities and initiatives that come from the national level that you feel as chair of the party here, well, we gotta get in line with that.

- I wouldn't say pressure, I'd say excitement.

I think for the first time in a while, especially once President Trump was sworn in and we saw all those executive orders that came down that same day, we saw his 30-minute inauguration speech.

People didn't feel pressured, get in line.

They were raising their hand and excited to sign up, volunteer, and say, "Yes, we've been thinking the same thing for a while and we're excited for the work to begin."

So I think that has been the overwhelming sentiment that there's been a positive wave of energy.

Even at our Shelby County Republican Party Reorganization Convention several weeks ago, we had a huge crowd of people that were interested to vote for new officers and to hear the new vision and message.

- And we'll talk about some of those specific things, but again, that same general question to you.

Pressure from the national level of priorities that the Democratic Party back with Joe Biden or with Kamala Harris, to fall in line with those initiatives.

- Right, so when we say wave of energy, I mean, he said positive.

We don't see it so positive.

I mean, we've seen the trickle down effects here just in Shelby County as we started trying to think about how we're gonna protect our citizens with safer gun laws.

We start seeing this heavy handed kind of thing that comes down the pike.

And we're like, oh, you know, here we need to make a decision on the safety of our citizens.

And then we hear this national agenda saying, "Hey, well, "you know, you know, guns are good and we don't need to make any changes around that."

And I think you have to look at it from community to community to understand how it impacts.

If we take a state of Tennessee gun law and say, "Hey, yeah, well it works in rural areas", but what works in rural doesn't work in urban.

And so for us, when we see a national trend or something like that, when we start seeing how it affects healthcare, how it affects women's health, how it affects just everyday life, those things really start, you know, taking a toll on this.

- Let me bring in Bill.

- And my question is, what happens to the excitement that you see on your side of the partisan divide when you read about things like National Institutes of Health funding being cut when it comes here?

- Well, there are going to be disagreements about how the country should be managed.

When you've got half the people who, you know, would identify with the Republican Party, who vote for the Republican party, of course there are gonna be disagreements about how that governing takes place.

But I would say, and not so much pressure to be unified on the issues, we still have our opinions.

We're still allowed to voice them and talk about 'em.

But if there is any pressure, it would be more about supporting and my belief in getting on board with making sure that you stay united.

That the disagreements that we are experiencing maybe within the party about what would be best, pales in comparison to the disagreements that we have with the Democrat party.

And that we've gotta stay focused on that fight, politically speaking, and being able to push forward agenda that we largely agree on.

Of course, there's some, you know, disagreements here and there, but we largely agree on this versus the agenda that we've seen over the last four years.

So let's get some good work done.

- So to that point, when you talk about the National Institute of Health, I mean, these are actual issues that's gonna affect everyone, not just Democrats or Republicans, but it's gonna affect healthcare as a whole.

I know that as we start mulling around with what budgets we're gonna cut, we're actually gonna cut out innovations.

We're gonna cut out opportunities in healthcare to deal with the diseases that are running rampant in the country.

We know that there are disparities out in our rural areas where we have to come out and make sure that we have the initiatives in place to move the needle as it relates to healthcare.

So when we start thinking about that, and then we say there's excitement, we don't have excitement about that.

I mean, it's actually disparaging to think about the fact that now we can say we're gonna cut the budget for cancer research and we're gonna go in and we're gonna give the top 1% a tax break.

So to the average person, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

- Well, and the question goes back to ultimately, what is the role and responsibility of government?

Are we taking on things that even though we may think they're good in general as society, is it really the role of government to do it?

Or there are better mechanisms in place like donating to St. Jude who does the cancer research, you know, its place rather than being government funded?

That's a tough one that hits close to home here, but a lot of it, the pushback right now seems to be around branding, such as cutting the Department of Education has been a big issue.

People don't want education to be cut, but if it were aptly named, the Department of Oversight and Redundancy in Education would be all on board with cutting it.

And that's kind of what they do, even though they're branded in a different thing.

So we have to look past exactly how it's being pitched to us, what's being cut versus what actually is being cut.

And a lot of it is redundancy nor the responsibility of government to fund.

- To be fair, it's not like Democrats are united in just the reaction to the second Trump administration.

And you talked about this at the Unity Rally.

You said, "We're all over the place as Democrats when we need to be focused more."

- Well, when I said that, one of the things that we ended up doing, when you're not necessarily so in touch with the grassroots efforts that are happening, I think sometimes you get a little off the beaten path.

I mean, sometimes we can focus on issues that really don't move the needle as it relates to the voters.

And I think that's one of the things that we found as we started talking with voters.

I think our messaging could have been more crisp as it related to, I mean, the price of eggs and how we're putting legislation around to make sure that the everyday person has an opportunity to live, love and exist in America with all the things that we promised as a country.

I think it's important for us to be able to, you know, give people some insight, that we have insight in our messaging to let them know that we are listening to them, that we hear what they're talking about.

Now, on the flip side of that, we don't wanna make empty promises because what we heard from the president is, "Hey, when I get in, right away, we're gonna drop those grocery prices."

Well, eggs are still $5.

And so we haven't seen that.

And what happens is, I felt like we had to have a messaging around what the economy was doing at that particular time.

Inflation was dropping.

There was some progression in the economy, but we didn't tout that message.

- But, but how do you plan and talk about legislation when there are super majorities, Republican super majorities in Nashville and Republicans have narrow majorities, but majorities nevertheless in Washington?

- Well, one of the things that we have to do, we have to point to the issues and we have to point to the issues that affect the people.

And one of the things, I always look at it like this.

If you don't let people know it's a three alarm fire happening, it's gonna be a problem.

Once they start seeing what's happening with these executive orders, the back to back things that are going on in the community, there are people actually fearing to walk out the door with immigrant families and that kind of thing.

There are so many things that are happening all at once that when you wake up in the morning, you're saying, "Did he sign something today?"

And that is what moves the needle in communities, whether it be on a national level or the local level.

- It's not a bad thing for people to be afraid to break the law.

- In the sense of immigration or something else?

- In general, I mean, people should be afraid not to pay their taxes.

People should be afraid to speed.

People should be afraid that, you know, if Bill were to reach across the stable and punch me, he wouldn't do that 'cause he's a good guy.

But you know, there are other people that won't do it because they're afraid they'd be caught and the consequences of it.

So we're a nation of laws and it's not a wrong thing to have laws in place that people are afraid to break.

- Yeah, well, I think nobody agrees with law breakers, but I think if we take a situation where we start seeking out situations where we can push, I'll give you a primary example.

If we start having situations like one that took place early in the week where someone shows up to a spot, says, "Hey, we're coming in and we're investigating something.

"We're not gonna tell you who we are.

We're just gonna take these people outta here."

- You're talking about the ICE raids?

- The ICE raids.

- It was a week ago as this airs at Taco Nganas, and we've reported it on a bunch, but keep going.

- Right, so in that case, and you know, there's more information that came out after that.

But the issue is, to the eye of the average person that's watching this, it doesn't seem like a situation that makes, it's not a happy situation.

I'll put it that way.

- I'm gonna come to you, Worth, but I mean, to Worth's point, people here illegally, Obama was, I mean, in recent decades, the most deportations happened under President Obama-- - Right.

- Statistically.

Is it the nature of that specific event or is it, we really shouldn't be deporting undocumented immigrants?

- No, I'm not saying that we shouldn't deport 'em.

I think that should happen.

- Yeah.

- But I think the way we've sensationalized the process.

I mean, when we WWE, 'cause that's what I'm calling it now.

Every time I look at the news now it's WWE.

We got it sensationalized.

I mean, it might be Kendrick Lamar can't be on the halftime show.

I mean, that's how outrageous we see things now.

- Yeah, I mean, and one of the numbers we're not talking about at all in this conversation is the tens of thousands of people in Memphis and Shelby County that are unemployed and that are here, they're citizens.

They're looking for jobs.

And if they were to have any of these jobs that are being filled by illegal workforce, they would probably have better wages.

They'd have a chance to get them and their families out of poverty.

And they'd have the protection of law.

And there's a lot of exploitation that's going on right now around illegal immigration where if they get hurt on the job, they don't get to file workers' compensation.

If they're sexually assaulted or abused, they can't go down the hallway to the PR office.

And the reason that they're being hired by so many of these companies, and some companies are just working with a system that they have in place and they're not any worse.

I'd say that they are not being abusive, but they're certainly are people that are targeting this illegal workforce because it's less risk to their business.

If something happens to that employee, then you know what, they have no recourse and no protection and they can turn them in or ship them themselves if they're involved in human trafficking, back south of the border.

- But then why do these federal officials with no insignia show up at some place and arrest workers they believe are illegal, but who have jobs, instead of the person who hired them?

- Let's arrest 'em all.

Well, one, it's gonna be based on state and federal law and you've got 50 different states with 50 different laws.

- Well, let's stay local if possible.

There are national issues that have local input.

- One investigation is much easier and quicker to happen.

You can identify whether somebody is a national citizen much more quickly than you can build a case of human trafficking and prosecute.

So let's see how the facts play out on those.

And whether they identified themselves or not, I'm not sure we know the answer to that.

We've seen video that's been released by the suspect himself in the case, but we don't really necessarily know exactly what's happened in the Tacos Nganas as it stands today.

So I would ask everybody to kind of pump the brakes before they cast judgment or don't know the full situation or the facts.

- Fair enough.

- On that case.

But if we're could talk broadly about immigration law, there's an extreme on each end.

You're talking about the worker who's here for the dream and they're here illegally, but they're working, they're keeping their head down, they're doing right and they're not committing any other crimes.

- And they're paying taxes.

- Absolutely.

- Some of the taxes, not all the taxes, they're not filing federal income taxes, which as you're talking about, those come down to the local and to the state level as well.

But they are being exploited and they are taking a job away from somebody here in Memphis that would want that job and is in a position, again, if they were to take that job, it would drive up wages for low income workers.

- Will, you wanna respond?

- Yeah, so when we talk about the jobs that they're taking, I mean the jobs that these gentlemen had, they were working in a food truck.

And you know, I venture to tell you that the jobs that we need to move the needle in Memphis aren't those jobs.

And there are a lot of jobs out there.

I mean, I've seen the job market, there are a lot of, - You would make the argument that no one else would take that job?

- I'm not making argue that nobody would take that job, but I do know that-- - Then let's provide 'em that opportunity.

- Hold on.

- I do think what we need to do is make sure that we extend the opportunity for better jobs.

One of the things, when we talk about a living wage, as you talk about exploitation, nobody wants an exploited job where the guy's paying this guy $9 an hour that's working in the kitchen and they're cooking and they're not getting paid overtime.

So nobody's gonna compete for that.

- If no one takes that job that forces the employer, supply and demand, to pay more.

But he doesn't have to pay the workers more because there's a source of illegal labor that they're able to tap into.

You eliminate that illegal labor, wages go up, quality of life in Memphis improves.

The poverty rate goes down, unemployment goes down.

- We have eight minutes left here.

Let's move on to other issues, 'cause we could do two whole shows on immigration.

But it's a big impact here.

I mean in the schools and the voucher bill that was recently passed and we talked some about that last week and we've been reporting on it daily and trying to focus on the local impacts of these things.

But you mentioned some of about guns and I'll stay with you, Worth, 'cause I cut you off.

You know, the last couple years in the big spike in crime, which is coming down, national spike that was worse here than many other cities, in Memphis.

But it's coming down, you know, bit by bit.

It's not as low as everyone wants it to be.

- Right.

- One of the things that people, Republican, Democrat almost always agree with in the years we've been talking about public safety and criminal justice system, is guns are too readily available.

Bill Gibbons, I mean, lifelong Republican, elected official, appointed official, law enforcement officials all have agreed, not that we're gonna take everybody's guns away.

That's a whole other conversation, right?

But this widespread availability, you can just walk around without care.

You can have, you know, a Glock on your person.

You can have a semi-automatic weapon.

You can kind of go, it feels like sometimes, wherever you want.

That's been a place of agreement.

And overwhelmingly the people of Memphis and of Shelby County, when we've done polling, want common sense gun reform.

- Yeah.

- More restrictions.

Where do you reconcile that in a high crime city with the the state and the national agenda?

- Yeah, and I'd say when people talk about that there's need for restrictions in gun access and ownership, it is a huge continuum that we're talking about.

In some cases, everyone will agree, there are some people that need to be restricted from owning firearms, you know, some people, in some locations, under certain circumstances.

Now the debate all revolves around which people, and which circumstances, and which locations.

And that's where, I think, especially what you've seen coming out of the State House and the Governor's mansion lately is that you're talking about a constitutional issue verse kind of the practical issue on the street.

And one of the things I've talked about for years is not everything that's permissible is advisable.

There are a lot of things that I believe the Second Amendment provides us or affords us as a right in the United States.

Is that gonna be the advisable path to make sure that people who shouldn't have guns don't have 'em?

Probably not.

If you want to challenge it, you really don't need to be going to the courts and asking them to reinterpret the Second Amendment.

What you need to do is have a conversation about the Second Amendment itself.

- Do you hear that from Republicans colleagues, that they want more restrictions?

- No, I mean, I would say, broadly, that you want to make sure people that are committed to a life of violence and are gonna use weapons to harm or threaten other people, they have to be dealt with with certainty.

- Okay.

- And that's not happening either.

- So to that point, I'm a gun owner and I happen to serve on the Shelby County Gun Safety Committee.

And one of the things that we talked about is, you know, we put together the first successful lock program, a mail-in lock program that we did in the Mid-South under Jerry Green and under Mayor Lee Harris.

As we think about those things, and we talk about guns, first of all, when we say restriction, restriction means to me as a gun owner, is that everybody does not need high capacity clips to protect themselves.

Everybody doesn't need to have certain weaponry at their disposal.

My issue with, and I think what Democrats are trying to say, we're not saying get rid of guns, but what we're saying is if we have someone that we know that may have a mental issue, that we probably have to make sure that person doesn't have a gun.

I mean, we've seen in the school shootings, just recently, we have people that have situations where, from a behavioral health perspective, they may have issues.

And I think that's something simple that we can agree on.

- And I think those red flag laws are really gonna be the tip of the spear, so to speak, for the gun debate that's coming up in Tennessee.

It's happening all across the country in Republican and Democrat-led states.

And we're about to have a big debate, probably in the next two years.

- A bit of housekeeping about the Democrats.

The Republicans had their local convention in January.

The Democrats have theirs in April.

- Yeah, it's gonna be in April, yes.

- Okay, will you be running for the chairman at that time?

- Yes.

- Okay, housekeeping done.

I thought that was going to be it.

- Yeah.

- Both of you talked about how your parties need to each make up some ground.

For instance, Donald Trump got fewer votes in Shelby County this time than he did four years ago.

And the top county in the state, in terms of turnout for him and for Senator Marsha Blackburn was Knox County.

For the first time in a long time, Shelby County wasn't the most Republican county.

What are your goals in terms of building?

- Yeah, if you go back 10 years, in 2012 when Obama was reelected the President, he got 63% of the vote in Shelby County.

And when Mark Lutrell was reelected in 2014, two years later, a Shelby County wide race, he got 63%.

So what's happened in the last 10 years?

Is it just participation and turnout or has there been a shift in the way that people are thinking?

I think, most importantly, we have not had significant turnout in elections.

Twenty-four percent in 2022 is absolutely abysmal.

- Overall.

- Overall voter turnout.

And what needs to happen, what people don't quite understand here yet is how the local issues impact their lives.

They see the national issues, they see the national debates, they get fired up about 'em, but they don't connect it to the local issues and showing up to vote in local elections.

Yeah, sorry.

- No, no.

- So what we see from the Democratic Party is we need to galvanize our base around some values that understand that your vote means something.

I mean, there's been a national attack on voters, I mean, led by Donald Trump always saying that, "Hey, "the election system doesn't work.

Your vote doesn't count."

TikTok puts stuff out talking about the Electoral College and how that doesn't work.

And we think, you know, on the local perspective, it's not affecting people.

But when you hear that every day, it keeps people from going to the polls.

And so what we are gonna do is we're gonna make sure we go out and we start civically educating people on how the voting process works.

One of the things that's real serious about this is we need to make sure that as we have our conversations, truth should prevail about the voting process.

- All right, we're gonna leave it there.

I apologize to cut you both off.

We could talk for another 26 minutes.

We're out of time.

If you missed any of the show today, you can go to wkno.org or to the Daily Memphian site, get the full episode and past episodes.

Thanks very much and we'll see you next week.

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