> >> JUST AHEAD OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SECOND STATE VISIT, THE U. S. AND THE U. K. UNVEILED A TRANSATLANTIC TECHNOLOGY PACT WITH TOP COMPANIES LIKE GOOGLE AND MICROSOFT PLEDGING SOME $42 BILLION IN INVESTMENTS TO DEVELOP BRITAIN'S AI INFRASTRUCTURE, IN THE AGE OF SOCIAL MEDIA, THE ONLINE LANDSCAPE IS MORE CHALLENGING THAN EVER FOR CIVIL SOCIETY.

A FAR CRY FROM WHAT THE INVENTER OF THE WORLDWIDE WEB INTENDED TO CREATE.

AS HE LAYS OUT NOW IN HIS NEW MEMOIR, THIS IS FOR EVERYONE.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLAIN WHY HE IS STILL OPTIMISTIC ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

>> THANK YOU CHRISTIANE.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> I TEACH THE HISTORY OF THE DIGITAL REVOLUTION AT TULANE UNIVERSITY AND MY STUDENTS ARE ALWAYS SURPRISED THAT THE WEB DIDN'T JUST SPRING OUT OF NOTHING.

THAT A REAL PERSON INVENTED IT AND THAT PERSON IS YOU.

TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE INVENTED THE WEB.

>> THEY ARE AMAZED THAT I AM ACTUALLY ALIVE.

THEY CAN PUT ME IN THEIR PROJECT.

INVENTING THE WEB, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THAT THE INTERNET AND THE WEB ARE DIFFERENT.

THE INTERNET IS THE UNDERSTOOD LYING NETWORK.

INVENTED AROUND 1969.

30 YEARS LATER IT WAS ALL OVER AMERICA.

THE PROGRAMS THAT INTRODUCED THE WEB WERE PRETTY CRUMMY.

YOU HAD TO BE AN EXPERT REALLY TO USE THE INTERNET.

THERE WAS NO WEB.

INVENTING THE WEB MEANT TAKING THIS IDEA OF LINKS AND CLICKING ON LINKS AND COMBINING IT WITH THE IDEA OF THE INTERNET SO YOU END UP WITH THE CONCEPT OF A LINK THAT COULD GO ANYWHERE.

>> YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE PARTICLE ACCELERATOR IN GENEVA.

YOU INVENTED IT BECAUSE YOU HAD TO ORGANIZE ALL THE INFORMATION THERE.

AND TELL ME ABOUT HOW THAT ENVIRONMENT LED TO THE WEB.

>> PEOPLE COME FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THEY HAVE THIS HUGE CHALLENGE.

THEY HAVE THE ACCELERATOR.

SO, IT IS A HUGE PROJECT.

PEOPLE COMING FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE.

AND THEY BRING ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT CULTURES.

SO WHEN I TRIED TO HELP THEM PUT THE WHOLE THING TOGETHER, THEN I FOUND THAT JUST THE STATE OF INFORMATION WAS TRICKY.

I FOUND IN FACT THOUGH THEY HAD SOME DOCUMENTATION SYSTEMS, WHAT WAS CRUCIAL WAS BRINGING PEOPLE TO COFFEE.

YOU ARE INVITING PEOPLE TO COFFEE.

THERE WAS A COFFEE PLACE, A COFFEE AREA.

WHERE IF YOU WERE THERE LONG ENOUGH, PEOPLE WOULD BUY.

SO PEOPLE WOULD WALK BY AND YOU COULD PLUCK THEM OUT AND SAY TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

HOW DOES IT WORK.

>> SO YOU WERE BORN IN 1955.

SAME YEAR AS STEVE JOBS, SAME YEAR AS BILL GATES.

BOTH OF, ALL THREE OF YOU INVENTED SOMETHING.

YOU INVENTED A WAY TO NAVIGATE THE INTERNET.

BILL GATES INVENTED THE WHOLE SOFTWARE INDUSTRY.

AND STEVE JOBS INVENTS A NOTION OF AN EASY PLUG AND PLAY PERSONAL COMPUTER.

THEY BECOME BILLIONAIRES.

YOU DON'T.

YOU PUT IT ALL ON THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

WAS THERE SOMETHING IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT YOU DECIDED NOT TO COMMERCIALIZE IT THE WAY THEY DID?

>> THE WEB IS A PROTOCOL.

IT IS NOT JUST A PROGRAM OR A PRODUCT.

WHEN THE WEB WORKS, ALL OF THE COMPUTERS SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE.

AND THAT'S A BIG ASK.

SO THEY ALL HAVE TO SPEAK HTML AND SO ON.

SO, THAT IS A HUGE ASK.

SO I WANTED THE WEB TO BE USED BY EVERYBODY.

IF IT IS GOING TO BE USED BY EVERYBODY.

IT HAS TO BE FREE OR IT WOULDN'T HAVE WORKED.

>> WE HAVE SEEN RESULTS OF THIS HORRIBLE TOXIC ENVIRONMENT YOU FIND ONLINE, OF COURSE, WE HAVE GONE THROUGH A REALLY HORRIBLE WEEK.

THE PAST WEEK.

AND YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT THE WEB MOVED AWAY FROM WHAT YOU WANTED AND IT BECAME A PLACE OF A CULTURE OF GRIEVANCE AND HOSTILE ACTIVISM AND HARASSING PEOPLE ONLINE OR COMMITTING VIOLENCE IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED ON THE SOCIAL MEDIA PART OF THE WEB.

EXPLAIN HOW THAT HAPPENED.

>> IT IS THE WAY SOCIAL MEDIA IS DEFINED.

THE WAY YOU WRITE THE CODE INSIDE THINGS LIKE FACEBOOK.

THEY DO IT IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KEEP YOU ON THE PLATFORM.

THAT MEANS THEY DO IT IN SUCH A WAY AS TO BE, THEY MAKE THE SYSTEMS ADDICTIVE.

I WAS ON INSTAGRAM WHEN IT WAS DIFFERENT.

WHEN I COULD CATCH UP WITH FRIENDS AND FAMILY.

THEN THEY CHANGED IT DELIBERATELY.

THE PEOPLE WHO BUILT INSTAGRAM MAKE IT SO THAT YOU STAY ON THE PLATFORM AND THEY DO IT BY FEEDING YOU THINGS WHICH MAKE YOU FEEL EMOTIONAL.

NOW ON THAT EMOTION IT IS OFTEN HATRED.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE ALGORITHMS WHICH AMPLIFY THINGS AND YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE COMPANIES AMPLIFY THINGS THAT ENGAGE YOU WHICH BASICALLY MEANS WHAT ENRAGES YOU.

IS THERE ANY WAY TO DO ETHICAL ALGORITHM DESIGN TO MAKE A SOCIAL MEDIA THAT WOULD MORE UNITE US RATHER THAN DIVIDE US?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

INSTEAD OF OPTIMIZING SO PEOPLE ARE ANGRY.

YOU OPTIMIZE PEOPLE BE CONSTRUCTIVE.

THERE ARE THINGS LIKE WICK WIKIPEDIA WHICH IS WONDERFUL.

>> WHAT IF PEOPLE COULD MAKE MORE MONEY DOING THESE ADDICTIVE THINGS?

SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT OR SOMEBODY TRY TO SAY YOU SHOULD NOT DO THESE TYPES OF ALGORITHMS?

>> THERE ARE PLACES THAT DON'T.

PINTEREST FOR EXAMPLE.

>> IT HAS BEEN LEFT BEHIND BY ALL THE ONES THAT ARE MORE ENRAGING AND ENGAGING.

>> YES, YOU COULD LEGISLATE.

>> DIDN'T THE WAY YOU INVENTED THE WEB MAKE IT VERY HARD FOR IT TO BE CONTROLLED BY GOVERNMENTS AND CENTRAL AUTHORITY?

>> BE.

BUT YOU CAN STILL MAKE THINGS ILLEGAL.

FRAUD IS ILLEGAL ON THE WEB.

A LOT OF THINGS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS WHERE WE DECIDED IS ILLEGAL.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE SUGGESTED THAT BECAUSE JUST AS YOU MAKE CERTAIN DRUGS TOO ADDICTIVE TO ALLOW, YOU COULD DO THE SAME THING WITH CERTAIN ALGORITHMS.

>> LET ME PARAPHRASE WHAT CASSIUS SAID TO BRUTUS.

MAYBE THE FAULT IS NOT IN THE ALGORITHM BUT OURSELVES.

THEME ARE POSTING WHAT THEY WANT TO SAY.

LOOKING AT WHAT THEY WANT TO BE ENRAGED BY AND THIS IS JUST PART OF HUMAN NATURE BEING AMPLIFIED BY THE WEB.

>> AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT THAT IS TRUE, BUT WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU ANGRY ONLINE, THEN YOU COULD BLAME THE PERSON WHO POSTED IT.

BUT IF THAT POST WERE CIRCULATED IN A MILLION PEOPLE'S FEEDS YOU COULD BLAME THE ALGORITHM.

THERE ARE BOTH SIDES.

>> SO IN OTHER WORDS, YOU TRY TO RESTRICT A COMPANY NOT FROM ALLOWING POSTS BUT FROM AMPLIFYING IT THROUGH THE ALGORITHM?

>> YEP.

>> DO YOU THINK GOVERNMENT OR SOMEBODY SHOULD REGULATE WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL DISINFORMATION AND OTHER PEOPLE WOULD JUST SAY IS PEOPLE'S FREE SPEECH?

>> IN GENERAL, I THINK IT IS VERY STRUCK I CAN.

THERE ARE SOME THINGS WHICH ARE ILLEGAL.

INCITING VIOLENCE IS ILLEGAL.

THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS WHERE IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE TOXIC ENVIRONMENT OF SOCIAL MEDIA.

ALL BUILT ON THE WEB ARCHITECTURE YOU INVENTED.

DO YOU THINK ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, THE ADVENT OF AI, GIVERS US A CHANCE TO HIT A RESET BUTTON ON THE TOXIC NATURE OF WHAT'S ONLINE?

>> YES.

I DO.

YEAH.

BECAUSE WE ARE THINKING, WE ARE RETHINKING EVERYTHING.

SO YEAH.

AI GIVES US A CHANCE AS YOU SAID TO HIT A RESET BUTTON.

SO WHEN YOU FIGURE OUT HOW AI WORKS, THEN WE CAN INSIST ON AN AI THAT WORKS FOR ME.

NOW WE HAVE MADE ONE.

IF IT WORKS FOR YOU.

SIRI DOESN'T WORK FOR ME.

IT WORKS FOR APPLE.

AND ALEXA WORKS FOR AMAZON.

AND SO WHEN IT MAKES A CHOICE.

I SAY I WANT TO BUY RUNNING SHOES, ALEXA WILL GO THERE THE PROCESS OF SELLING ME RUNNING SHOES LIKE AMAZON DOES.

BY OPERATING THEIR MARKET.

I WANT AN AI NOT FOR AMAZON OR APPLE BUT ME.

AND I WROTE THAT UP.

AND MY COMPANY, WE ACTUALLY DEMONSTRATED THAT YOU COULD DO THAT.

YOU COULD MAKE AN AI YOU TRUST.

THAT WORKS FOR YOU.

YOU GIVE IT ACCESS TO ALL OF YOUR PERSONAL DATA AND IT IS MORE EFFECTIVE.

>> WHEN YOU INVENTED THAT THING, YOU WROTE ABOUT IT A FEW YEARS AGO.

THEY CALLED THEM AGENTS.

IT IS AN AI AGENT THAT WILL BE MY AGENT THAT WILL BOOK MY HOLIDAY OR BUY MY RUNNING SHOES IF I NEEDED THEM.

WHY WOULD THAT AGENT, HOW WOULD YOU MAKE IT DIFFERENT FROM THE AGENTS THAT WE ARE GETTING NOW FROM OUR AI SYSTEMS?

>> WE MAKE IT DIFFERENT, WHEN YOU SET IT UP, YOU TRAIN IT, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU MAKE A COMMERCIAL DECISION.

YOU MAKE SURE IT IS WORKING AS YOUR AGENT.

WITH THE WAY THE AGENT WORKS.

THAT YOU HAVE ALL OF YOUR DATA AND A SOLID DATA WALLET.

IT IS A WAY OF ALLOWING YOU TO HAVE DATA YOU CONTROL.

AND, WHEN YOU START AN APPLICATION, THEN IT ASKS YOU WHERE YOU WANT TO STORE THE DATA AND IT GIVES YOU COMPLETE CONTROL OVER THAT.

IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD FROM THE CURRENT WORLD.

>> THE CURRENT WORLD INSTEAD OF HAVING THIS SOLID DATA WALLET IN WHICH ALL MY DATA IS IN MY CONTROL, WE NOW HAVE A WEB THAT HAS COOKIES.

WHERE AMAZON KNOWS WHAT I HAVE DONE.

WHAT APPLE KNOWS WHAT I HAVE DONE.

AND THEY CAN USE THAT INFORMATION TO MARKET THINGS TO US.

ISN'T THAT A GOOD BUSINESS MODEL TO MAKE THE COMPANIES BE ABLE TO THRIVE?

>> YES.

AND TARGETED ADVERTISING IS TYPICALLY MORE EFFICIENT.

SO, THE WHOLE ADVERTISING BASED BUSINESS.

PEOPLE ARE NOT USING SEARCH ENGINES SO MUCH.

THEY ARE STARTING TO USE AI INSTEAD.

>> THE ADVERTISING MODEL ON THE WEB EXISTS PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE WAY THE WEB WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED BY YOU AND OTHERS.

THIS DOESN'T EASILY ALLOW SMALL PAYMENTS, SECURE TRANSACTIONS.

WOULD WE BE BETTER OFF WITH A WEB WHERE I COULD PAY SMALL AMOUNTS OF THINGS RATHER THAN HAVE IT BE ADVERTISING BASED?

>> WE HAVE ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT SINCE THE BEGINNING.

YES.

WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO FIND WAYS OF GETTING REVENUE TO CREATIVES.

COPPERY COPYRIGHT LAW HAS NOT BEEN DOING VERY WELL.

FOR THOSE REGIONS WHO WANT TO PAY LIKE THAT OR WANT TO PATRONIZE.

>> SO ON THE WEB, PEOPLE CAN PUT UP MATERIAL.

THEY CAN PIRATE MATERIAL.

AI MAKES THAT EVEN MORE SO WHICH IS AI TRAINS ON ALL OF THAT DATA.

IS THERE A WAY FOR PEOPLE WHO CREATE CONTENT WHO HAVE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY TO COPYRIGHT IT AND MAKE IT WORK ON THE SYSTEM?

>> IF YOU WRITE SOMETHING ON THE WEB, BY DEFAULT, IT IS COPYRIGHTED.

IF THE AI USES THAT, THE NUMBER OF PROBLEMS, WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN, IF AN AI USES YOUR DATA YOU SHOULD GET SOME REVENUE BACK SOMEHOW OR OTHER.

>> DOESN'T THERE NEED TO BE SOME PROTOCOLS THAT WOULD PERMIT THAT?

>> SOME PEOPLE THINK YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIND OUT.

OKAY, SO WHICH SOURCE DID YOU ACTUALLY USE TO MAKE THAT RESULT?

THEN YOU CAN IMAGINE WHEN THE ANSWER COMES TO THEM, THE PROTOCOL WOULD THEN GO BACK AND RECOMPENSE.

BUT THAT IS ALL IN THIS IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO FIND OUT WHAT SOURCES ARE RESPONSIBLE.

GIVEN THE ANSWER IS I THINK IS ALL IN THE RESEARCH STAGE.

MAYBE IT WILL COME IN THE FUTURE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT TAKING THE WEB BACK.

WHAT ARE YOU AND YOUR TEAMS DEVELOPING?

IN TERMS OF PROTOCOLS OR IDEAS THAT WOULD MAKE THE WEB A LITTLE LESS TOXIC AND MORE USEFUL TO THE ORDINARY PEOPLE?

>> WHEN THE LOCALS, ANYBODY COULD START THEIR OWN WEBSITE SO THAT PARATHA PEOPLE HAVE, YOUR SOVEREIGN, WE ARE BUILDING SYSTEMS WHERE IT IS LIKE HAVING YOUR OWN WEBSITE.

WE ARE BUILDING SYSTEMS WHERE THERE MAY BE PERSONAL ONLINE DATA STORE.

BUT IT IS ONE THING THAT YOU COMPLETELY CONTROL.

BUILDING APPS THAT WORK.

WITH APPS SO THAT YOU CAN BUILD APPS THAT ARE COLLABORATIVE.

FOR COLLABORATIVE COMMUNICATION.

BUILDING THINGS WHICH GIVE YOU BACK YOUR SENSE OF PURPOSE.

BEING A PEER TO OTHER PEOPLE ON THE WEB.

GIVES YOU BACK AN ABILITY TO COLLABORATE WITH THEM.

>> SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.