[upbeat R&B music] - Welcome to Fatherhood, where we aim to uplift voices and redefine legacy by having real conversations about what it means to be a father in today's climate.

The path to fatherhood is deeply personal, but for LGBTQ+ fathers, that path is often shaped by moments of self-discovery, difficult conversations, and powerful breakthrough.

Here to help me break down this compelling topic is actor Trey Oliver, the president and CEO of Latino Memphis, Mauricio Calvo, and educator and barber/stylist Robert Williams.

I want to get into this conversation.

It's an impactful conversation.

I'm so glad for y'all to be here.

So the first thing I want to ask Mauricio is how did you embrace your identity and what did that look like into your journey into fatherhood?

- Well, thanks for having me.

You know, as you said, it's a journey, right?

I grew up in Mexico City in the '80s.

This was very much a taboo.

As a friend of mine says, I had to convince everybody, including myself, that I was not part of this community.

But I always wanted to be a dad and I fell in love with my wife at the time and we had three kids and we were together for 20 years, actually, yes.

We continue, so we're not together as a couple, but we're co-parenting and very committed to these three kids.

- Yeah, the biggest thing I heard you say is you had to not convince everybody in the community, but convince yourself.

- Absolutely.

- So that is the biggest thing and the most important thing.

But even Trey, tell me about how did you embrace your journey and to your true identity of fatherhood?

- Absolutely, yeah.

Thank you for having me.

It's very similar to Mauricio.

Same.

You know, growing up in the South, I kind of questioned my sexuality when I was young, but I was committed to living what I thought was a, quote, unquote, normal lifestyle.

I fell in love with the mother of my child and we were together for seven, almost eight years, had my daughter, and we were in love, we were a family, and things didn't work out, but we got the best blessing we could, which was my daughter.

And I couldn't have, I couldn't have wrote it any better if I tried to.

- Yeah, yeah.

- Yeah.

- And like you said, the best blessing that came out of it was your daughter.

- Absolutely.

- And you were together with your, I think, girlfriend for seven, eight years.

- Seven, eight years.

- Seven, eight years.

- And we're still strong co-parents today.

Like Mauricio said, both very committed to being parents and just being there for our daughter.

We're both very supportive of each other and, yeah.

- Okay.

Good to know.

And Robert, tell us about your journey.

- Well, thank you for having me as well.

Mine was a little different, actually.

I don't think I've ever said this out loud or publicly, but my journey started with me being molested and it was a thing where I was hiding it or then grew curious, but I always knew what either my family told me or what was expected.

Growing up in the church, so you hear, you know, "You're not supposed to do this," or, "You're not supposed to do this," or, "You're sinning if you did this."

So with that being not necessarily in the back of my mind, I always knew that I wanted to be with a woman, I wanted to be married, I wanted to have kids.

So kind of pushed that curiosity to the side until later, it just kept building, kept building, and tried it and left it alone, tried it again, left it alone.

Me and my son's mother married out of college.

We met in college and got married in 2011 and had my son in 2013.

We did part ways and I kind of fell back into this lifestyle.

But it became more, I would say, comfortable, for lack of better words, recently, actually, like the last couple of years.

But unlike most fathers, it kind of put a... a block when it came to my son.

So kind of those things where I wasn't able to see him or not able to see him or where certain people, or not to call names, but certain people would stigmatize you for living your lifestyle, you know, your truth or what you feel is your truth in that moment.

- Yeah, I do appreciate you for sharing that.

Did you say this is your first time sharing this publicly?

- Publicly, yes.

- So I do give you a lot of, I know that was huge.

I know it was an impactful moment for you.

Even to that point, what did that even conversation look like for your son of having these conversations about your sexuality?

Where did that conversation go when you told him about?

- I actually haven't had that conversation with him yet because of the difficulty that's going on right now.

But I do actually want to have that conversation with him to let him know that no matter what lifestyle you may choose, you know, whatever any lifestyle anybody may choose, I mean, you're still to love them, right?

They're still people.

They're still human.

You can still have the same love that any other child or father or whoever can have.

So, yeah, I do want to have the conversation with him one day.

He's smart enough to understand now, but because of the situation at hand now, the right time, I'll know it.

- And I've heard you use the word situation a couple times.

I don't know if you want to get into what the situation is or we could come back to it.

- We can.

- Okay.

So Mauricio, tell me about your conversation that you had.

You said three kids, right?

- Right.

- If I remember correctly, two girls, one boy?

- That's correct.

- Okay, that's my combination, so I remember that pretty well.

- We're living the same thing, exactly, yeah.

- So how did that conversation go with you?

- Yeah, so I actually came out to my ex-wife.

And I wanna say something you a little bit of, Trey said earlier, I don't think these relationships with our former spouses, partners, whatever, didn't work.

I like to say that they work until they don't anymore, right?

Because they worked for a little time, right?

That's why we fell in love and, eventually, you know, we evolved.

So the relationship didn't end, it evolved.

But to the question about the kids, before I came out publicly, I talked to the three of them.

And the reason being, and I respect when people decide to come out or not or when.

That's a very personal decision.

But to me, it was a moment where we were trying to raise kids that were open-minded, inclusive, accepting, loving, and it just didn't feel for me that I was being real authentic to them if I was telling them to love everybody, to accept everybody, but I was living in a different world that society had stigmatized or classified as whatever, right?

And I was like, "No," I mean, this is, it was not the only reason why I came out, but it was important to come out for them, it was important for me to come out for them as part of their growing.

And surprisingly, now looking back, it's not surprising, but at the moment, surprisingly, they took it really well.

I mean, I don't know if it's this generation or the way we're raising them or a combination of things, but while there are other people who don't get it, I feel like this generation gets it much better.

- Yeah.

Were you nervous at all?

- Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely.

But, I mean, I did it at the same time, but separately, if that makes sense.

I didn't put them in a room, but I had a conversation with three of them at, you know, the same day, or one day apart, and they all took it really well.

I was really thankful and surprised.

- What were their ages when you- - Yeah, so at the time, they were 15, 13, and 11.

- Okay.

- And if I remember correctly, was it Father's Day when you- - I actually came out on Father's Day.

- Oh, it was Father's Day when you came out.

Did that happen by accident or did you- - No, no, no, no, no.

I wrote a post and I said, "Today's Father's Day.

I am coming out as a," at the time, I identified myself as bi.

You know, this is a fluid conversation, right?

But it was like, hey, because I'm not ashamed to be who I am.

I'm still being the same person and the same loving father.

So, yeah, came out on Father's Day.

- Wow.

Like I said, I think we talked briefly, but I'm a father of a two-year-old daughter and my wife is expecting twins.

So I am just learning different things what I can do.

But just to embrace who you are and just to tell your kids of who you are is the most important thing.

All right.

So, Trey, tell me about the biggest challenge that you have being an LGBTQ father.

- Yeah, I think just kind of the biggest challenge I think for fathers in general, there's a certain level of masculinity that is expected, you know, a certain, I guess, image of masculinity that is placed on us that, especially black men.

And then once you add LGBT or being gay with it, from the outside looking in, a lot of outside voices or people who may try to stigmatize you, people try to question your manhood or your masculinity or whatever, your ability to be a father.

And I think my biggest challenge is just trying to fight against their narrative.

You know, I don't subscribe to people's ideas of what a perfect father is supposed to look like, of what a perfect situation is supposed to look like.

I think a lot of people, I think a lot of damage has been done to a lot of children, especially young gay children growing up trying to find themselves.

It's because so many people hold close to these ideas of this is what a family is supposed to look like and this is what this is supposed to look like.

And I just don't, I think that everybody is different.

Every child is different.

And if you are in a healthy situation where you could be happy and there's love, that that's what matters the most.

- I think the biggest thing to even being a father is showing your child love, right?

Who you are is who you are or what you like is what you like, right?

But the biggest thing for a father is to love your child.

And that is the most important thing.

Robert, coming back to you, what are some of the challenges that you might face being a part of the LGBTQ community and being a father to your son?

- To dive back in- - Like, how I switched up.

[Robert and Chima laugh] - So to go back to what he said, and there's a word that kind of stuck out to me the most was he said a lot of damage has been done.

I'm a part of an organization where we do cutting out stigma and trying to do it behind the barber chair and it's gearing towards HIV.

So it opened my eyes up to when I was asked to be here about fatherhood.

So a lot of people stigmatize people with HIV and they'll tell them, "Oh, you're this," or, "You can't do this," or, "I can't shake your hand, can't do this."

So it's almost the same thing about being gay or whatever.

And so one of my biggest challenges is, going back to the situation, is that where I want to be in my child's life, it's more of a force, not a choice for me to where I am not visible, and to not say too much, but I may call and I get a response.

When I'm supposed to see him, I may not see him.

Might be a time he may respond, you know, all right and there might be a time where I might not ever get a response.

So that's the biggest challenge that I have right now.

Not necessarily when it comes to who I am or what I decide to do, because like you, I came out, which was funny, on Christmas, and it was by accident.

[Robert laughs] That was publicly, but I told my mom and I was really, really, really nervous.

But I actually had a talk with my uncle who raised me, who did a lot of help in raising me.

But I would have to say the biggest challenge is being there when I want to be, because I didn't have that with my dad.

I had father figures, but it wasn't necessarily my father himself.

But in turn, I was there before he passed.

So it's like, if I know what I went through as a young child wanting my dad or wanting to be there, I wouldn't dare put my child through that.

And whether I'm this or whether I'm that, I don't ever want to teach my child to stigmatize anybody when it comes to whether they're gay, straight, bi, not necessarily sexual, but if they want to be a stripper, I mean, you can't stigmatize.

If you counsel your child from being in somebody's life for being gay, that means you're counseling or teaching them to not love someone who's a stripper, not to love someone who's a drug dealer, or this kind of, you're counseling them from loving and what you're trying to pull them back from, you're actually teaching them not to love a certain person because of what they decide to do.

- Exactly.

- Because you're not, because I taught you this, you're not doing this.

I mean, it's a lot of, it's a two-fold thing.

And I don't think many people actually think about that when they're doing certain things or doing it out of anger or because of what you think.

Like they say, ain't no one sin greater than the next.

So ain't no one decision greater or less than the next.

- You preaching.

You preaching today.

It's not even Sunday yet.

But no, thank you, Robert, for sharing.

That was powerful.

I didn't know if you were comfortable enough sharing- - Oh, I'm fine.

[Robert and Chima laugh] - But I think the viewers do need to hear that, and you want to be there, right?

- I want to be.

And I hear people say, "Man, come get this child.

Come get this."

Go ahead.

And it's like, why can I get, but it's a hope and prayer right now.

So, yeah.

It's, yeah.

- If there's something that, if there was a message or a way that you can get to your son, if there's something that you want to say, what would that be?

- I would tell him like I tell him now, I love you.

That's just that.

And [sighs] okay, I remember the first day he was born, and there's a picture that I always look at around his birthday where I was holding him.

And I said that day that I will always have your back.

I have your back now, and I will always have your back.

Regardless of what you think right now, how you feel, whether you understand or don't understand, I will always have your back.

Whether it's now, and I'm saying this now, but whether it's now or later, which I would prefer much more sooner than later, son, I will always have your back and I always love you.

- Man, that is powerful.

Hey, before I start tearing up.

- I've been trying not to.

- No, but again, thank you, thank you.

As you were saying that, again, my wife is expecting twins, I'm like, the first words I wanna come out of my mouth to the twins and even my daughter now is that I love you and that I'll have their back.

That is a powerful thing.

- And I guess, to me, I didn't get the opportunity, 'cause he was a c-section, to cut the cord.

- Same, same.

- So, yeah, to hold him for that time and to actually be with him a week alone, I had my son the first week he was born by myself.

- Wow.

- 'Cause she had to go back to the hospital.

- Wow.

- So, yeah, I did a lot of, yeah, being there.

- Yeah.

So Mauricio, tell me about how the LGBT community has even shaped the positive experiences of who you are and being a father.

Because, you know, we heard different things.

We've heard a powerful message.

Let's bring it back to light where the positivity of the community has shaped you to be a healthy and successful father.

- I mean, it's moments like this, right?

So thanks for sharing that.

I mean, I think we can see the connection that there's nothing that prevents any one of us, the four of us here or anybody watching, from having our kids' back.

And honestly, that's what our kids want to hear.

Honestly, that's all they care.

Like who we love, who we date, who we like, it's secondary.

This conversation is about them.

It's knowing that we have their back.

And them knowing that we have their back, right?

And I think when we show up, you know, you talk about how does being LGBTQ, I mean, honestly, it's just a label that, but it makes us kind of double up, right?

I mean, somehow we have to fight against these stigmas and the stereotypes, but at the end of the day, like, kids are kids.

They just wanna know that you're gonna be there.

There are so many absent fathers, with money, without money, Latino, black, white, all forms and shapes.

And we're proving that we're there for them.

So I honestly think that being out has made me a better father.

I mean, you have to ask them, but I do believe that I, and not because I'm having to work harder, but it's just another proof that the love is unconditional for them, regardless about my orientation.

Like, it just, to them, my kids still have the same issues at school and growing up and going to college and all these things regardless of who I like.

It's about them, not about me.

So I have found, again, a lot of authenticity, a lot of pride, on being Latino, on being queer, on just being me, right?

And these intersections, you talk about can you be a father and being gay, like, yeah, two things can be true.

And we have these intersections that, actually, they add to who we are and to the people around us.

They don't subtract, in my opinion.

So we have to continue to push against these narratives that they try to take things away because there's no scientific or empirical proof that this makes you a weaker parent.

If nothing else, we're showing up for our kids.

- Wow.

That is amazing.

And the biggest thing, one of the things that you said is it's just a label, right?

It doesn't define you as a father.

And even I want to tie all this around and ask you, Trey, about what can we do or what could anybody do to help with shaping the views of the next generation with LGBTQ and fatherhood?

What can we do or what can other people do to shape that narrative?

- I think that what other people, and that's such a good, especially with just what's going on politically right now in the country, you know?

- Oh, for sure.

- There's this idea, I think, that we need to protect children from certain ideas or certain thoughts or, you know what I mean?

Especially when it comes to sexuality, and no matter what that looks like.

And I'm just of the belief that it is not our job as parents to, it's not our job as parents to block the world from our children, to stop our children from experiencing the world.

If a child is old enough to ask a question, then they're old enough to get an honest answer about it.

It's our job to-- - Hey, can you say that again?

No, for real.

- Yeah, no.

Literally, it is, what did I just say?

[all laugh] - If a child, if a child is old enough to ask a question.

- If a child is old enough to ask a question, they're old enough to get an honest answer about it.

- I agree.

- 'Cause if they don't get it from you, they're gonna get it from somebody else.

- They're gonna get it from somewhere.

They're gonna get it from TikTok.

They're gonna get it at school.

And I just think it's our job, so many people are of the idea that we have to, as parents, again, it props up the stigma and the stereotypes when you say, "Oh, well, I don't want my children "to know about that.

They're too young to know about that."

It is our job as parents to help our children navigate this river of life, right?

They can't do that if we shield them from the realities of the world.

You know, so- - Because the river of life is still there, right?

- It's still there.

- So if you're not the one that's gonna do it, somebody's gonna do it.

- They're gonna learn.

And I mean, I think we all, just in our personal lives, we probably all know people, I know when I went to college, it almost turned into like a joke, like a stereotype in itself, of the kids who came to college who never did anything.

You know, they grew up super sheltered and freshman year, they were like, "No, I can't do that.

I can't cuss."

By sophomore year, they were the wildest ones we knew because it came to them all at once.

They never-- - Conversations they never had.

- The filtered version of- - That's true.

- Real-life things from their parents, from the people that love them.

So I think that the best thing we could do is to have these conversations with our children.

You know, I'm not saying sit them down for anything that's inappropriate beyond their age, but have these conversations so they know how to handle these things and navigate the world so that they don't go out into the world and further these harmful ideas.

- Because if we're not the ones teaching them, the world is gonna teach them.

- Exactly.

- That is very important.

Man, I even forgot, I thought we were in my living room having this conversation.

This type of energy, I love it.

- Well, and people need to have more of these conversations in the living room because the reality is that, I know this is an episode of like, "Oh, you found three," there are a lot of people out there, out and not out, that have similar lives to ours and it's normal.

And I think you were asking what can we do, I think we need to continue to normalize it because this has always existed.

There's nothing wrong with us, absolutely.

There's something wrong with society.

- Exactly.

- But, yeah, it's normal.

- And to that point about there are so many other people, I think another idea that a lot of people, I wish that a lot of people would know is that sexuality exists on a spectrum.

I think so many people, like you said, watching this, there are probably gonna be a ton of fathers, a ton of parents who will watch this and say, "Man, I wish that I was brave enough to have this conversation."

You know?

- Exactly.

- Just because you are in a loving relationship and fall in love with a woman does not mean you're not sexually attracted to men also, you know?

And I know for me specifically, I was in love with the mother of my child.

It had nothing to do with, you know, the reason that our relationship ended had nothing to do with the fact that I am also attracted to men.

That had nothing to do with it.

- Nothing to do with the end of your relationship.

- At all.

And, you know, I think this is powerful 'cause a lot of people will see this and see that being honest, there's a lot of power in that.

And I want people to be able to experience the freedom that comes with being able to be yourself.

I think everybody that knows this walks around with a secret of who they really are.

You build a mask of who you are.

You build a alternate, a avatar of yourself that you present to the world.

And I know for me personally, I got so used to my avatar that once I came out of it and once I was ready to tell the truth about my sexuality, I was 28 years old and I was like, "I don't even know who I am for real."

There were people in my life that I didn't even, I didn't even know if my relationship with them was based on who I really am or based on this masked, fictional character that I built myself to be.

- Who they wanted you to be.

- Right, exactly.

Who I thought they wanted me to be.

- All right, gentlemen, this is- - And I- - Oh.

Come on, Robert.

Let's go.

- I was gonna say, as an educator, I see it.

When you don't allow your kids to be around their father because of their choice, they may grow up or go to school and start saying, "Oh, you're gay, you're this and you're that," and now you got a bigger problem 'cause now you got a fight.

Now you're doing this and now you're doing that.

It causes other issues to whereas if you are introducing them or if you're teaching them certain ways of life or whatever, "Here's what I want, but here's what you can also," you know, just teach them.

I think the biggest one that I had in mind of one thing that we could do is just embrace them, period.

I don't see in school systems itself where they have activities, not necessarily activities, but events, activities, conversations, classes, whatever, geared towards kids who are in that community or see themselves in that community or acting on, whatever the case is.

It's not a subject in the school system itself.

So if we as adults can embrace it and have some form of forum for kids who are growing up with it, then it would be a powerful hit.

- Gentlemen, this is a conversation that definitely needs to be a part two.

And again, I really do thank y'all for being on this series, on this show, and being open and honest and for everybody to hear your truth, to hear the things that you're going through and some of the challenges.

As we've seen today, visibility matters and so does being truly seen and heard.

These fathers are leading with love, truth, and courage.

It's up to all of us to keep listening, amplifying, and standing beside them because the work doesn't stop here.

It starts here.

Thanks for joining us.

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